Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 4 · 1 year ago

4 Lessons From a Prolific Marketing Leader To Reach Greater Heights

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Kevin Bobowski, SVP Marketing at Aurea Software, shares lessons from working as the head of an internal marketing agency for incredible brands like Infer and Jive. And his ABM field events strategy is sure to inspire new ideas for working well with Sales.

Welcome to growth marketing camp, where we sit down with our favorite marketers to D mystify growth and give you the insights to help turn your next campaign into a major success. Let's get into it, all right. Welcome to yet another episode of the Growth Marketing Camp and we were very excited to be joined by Kevin Babowski, the svp of marketing and urs software. Kevin, you've held a number of senior leadership titles and marketing at a number of companies. Maybe most famously, and you correct me if I'm wrong, act on software, who most of us in the marketing you know realm are very familiar with, and even had a little stint on an episode of MSNBC show presenting for offer pop. So I give us a little of your background there, Kevin. Yeah, so just quickly, thank you for having me on the show, wrex I'm super excited looking forward this this conversation. So, yeah, I've been in marketing and marketing technow software for almost twenty years and I probably came from like the most unusual backgrounds. I was an accounting major and Undergrad a CPA at one point. Yeah, my first job out of college was internal audit for the Defense Department. But when this whole world of like data driven marketing really started to evolve a while ago, when it was in its infancy, suddenly my skill set became really interesting for the marketing world. And so remember my first exposure to marketing technology and software and digital market was working at web analytics at the United States Postal Servicecom, uspscom, and I fell in love with it. I was like at that point this is like two thou two thousand and one. I'm like, I want to be in this space forever. I worked it on the USPSCOM website for two years. My Dad was a postal carrier for forty years, so he I would talk shop in very different ways, but it was awesome and so ever since then I've never really looked back and just kept building on that experience and web analytics at the Postal Service incredible. That'll be really interesting to talk maybe about the transition, because I know a lot of practitioners are listening to the show and watching.

We'd love to learn maybe how do you go from that transition from very deep knowledge and maybe understanding of the technical side into it more of a leadership roll, because you held many senior leadership roles and that's obviously a big swing. That's a huge difference from marketer or maybe practitioner only to a marketing leader. You have any maybe history on that you could share with us? Yeah, because having a core competency or course skill is something I always recommend the folks in the growth of their career. And sometimes, I think, folks will suggest I want to get lots of different broad experiences. Hmm, I think that's great too. My recommendation of folks is get your core competency, like the one area that you're great, and keep building off of that core. And that's what I did. Like, I really loved web analytics. I also loved understanding go to market and like product marketing and personas. That kind of evolved into demanded neration. That evolved into demand generation of product marketing, that that evolved into demand Gen product marketing, building a great brand and that led to those senior leadership positions. And it's interesting, like I'll talk to folks who are looking to become a CMO and sometimes there's this belief that you have to have all of these skills to become a CMO. Sure, and it's a bit of a Unicorn, and if you talk to recruiters and CEOS they will tell you that as well. They're often looking for maybe one or two of those three core competencies. So I always come back build your core competency, know who you are and then expand from that. Totally makes sense and interesting. Let's talk a little bit about then Aria software, because where you're at now you have a lot of different opportunities to represent maybe multiple products to multiple markets. Can you tell us a little bit about area and you know who you help? WHO's your target audience there? Yeah, so Oria is a software company. It's a holding company within a private equity firm and the private equity firm buys bb software companies, and so my team is responsible for building out our demand generation and product go to market strategies for these...

...companies that are in the private equity firm, and so many of these companies, for those that are in marketing, they might remember infer was the predictive lead scoring software like these are companies that we bring back to market and build out a new customer acquisition model, and so we work with every single type of company. We work with companies that are our product led growth with free trials. We work with companies where we are selling sort of multi year million dollar deals and then everything in between. So our personas very a ton based on the product and the deal size and the sales motion and the marketing motions also vary based on the company that we're working with at the time. You guys are almost like an internal agency across multiple that's really what you are effectively, right. That's what yeah, that's the best way to describe it's some people called like the center of excellence, but it's almost like an internal agency working on all these different products and it's been fascinating because you quickly learn that good best practices applied all products, regardless of if you're selling a two hundred dollar product or a two hundred thousand dollar product, and that's been one of the really rewarding pieces, is trust the best practices at a work that could be really helps drive performance. Makes Perfect Sense. Now, maybe looking to some of your more specifically, like one company example, are there any customers that you might be able to name that people would be familiar with who you've worked with in the current position or just in any yeah, recently, give you a good example of we worked with a couple of really interesting brands at my last company, at Bright Edge, kind that we're pushing the edge on SEO and how to use Seo and organic search to build out their brand. And the deeper story there is build out their brand but more importantly, compete against Amazon. And just so it was an interesting angle. So Seo, organic search good market, as market as we love it, because it drives free demand for you when you get it. Was Awesome. But I also...

...started seeing as a strategic weapon in the fight against Amazon, which any company that you asked today will suggest that they're competing with Amazon. So we got to work with some companies that we're doing some really innovative things and that sort of competitive space and that was really interesting. That's awesome. I'm sure you've learned and grown a ton even from past experience through this new experience now. So I'm sure you can name a million companies in a million different lessons. But let's dig into a particular campaign or maybe a type of campaign that you've run in the past and talk to me maybe about the goal of this campaign. To start off. We're trying accomplish something in mind. Yeah, so you would pose this question to be. I could have, but we're doing the prep and I was really thoughtful question because it made me really think about what has been successful in the past. And the example that I'll give is an ABM field marketing example. And what we were trying to do at the time at this company was we needed to close bigger deals, a big enterprize deals, and we had not yet developed kind of the muscle memory to do that. Sure, and so we decided to launch field marketing activities and we focus first on field dinners, big dinners, and so the goal was we got people in the pipe pine but we can't close these big deals. How do we use ABM and field marketing together to try to help move these deals through the pipeline and help the sales organization close some of these big deals? So that was the objective, which you say that's maybe mid funnel opportunities and then like this, some way you've already engaged them. Or were they still top of funnel? That's a really good question. So we were doing both. So we were finding that there was a set of deals that we were at the finish line. They were competitive deals against competitors and if we can get those people to the dinner, we knew we had a chance to influence them and close that and win that deal. But we quickly realized is there's lots of other companies that we want to engage with, and calling up and asking them to do a demo or sales called there's not a lot of value in that. But if you reach out to them with an offer to meet...

...with other peers in their market place, to go to the fascinating place for dinner or like a great venue for like happy hours and things like that, we would find that was a really great intro to getting people into the funnel and then we could eventually work them through the funnel as well. It sounds like a fascinating campaign strategy. I've heard of it deployed before. It can be budget intensive, so I imagine you had to be very selective and careful about the ways that you deployed it. Can you tell us maybe a little bit deeper about the audience? Where they exclusively enterprise? was there some cutoff? Did you have to have a certain criteria to to say hey, as a sales up, I won't invite this person? Yeah, it's a good question. If you think about doing a dinner the dinner itself isn't that expensive, but there's a lot of people involved and what mistake we could have made was opening up too broad and you had so many people it just didn't feel right. Yeah, and so what we did was focus. We found two sales reps, sales leaders, who wanted to own the product project or the initiative the field dinner from their end, and then, working with them and their pipelines, we were able to figure out who do we really want to have to the event right, because if marketing drove a bunch of people to a dinner but it was in the salesperson's pipeline, that's probably not going to be a win. Marketing will celebrate that, but it's not helping sales closed deals. Yeah, and so we really went back to the sales leader who's in the Los Angeles, and we said, okay, help us find out what your prospects do you want at this event? And he owned it and he got the right people in the room, which was a huge measure of success. Yea. And over all the costs weren't that big, so that was great. And number three is by having that targeted focus and really being dedicated to hey, these are the companies were going after. We avoided the full sort of try anything approach to get buts and seats because that's not really going to help move the needle pretty quickly. There is an element of quality here as well as quantity, and I think by introducing the sales reps early you get that introduction of quality. Yeah, now that totally makes sense.

I love the hand in hand motion with the sales team that the salesperson owned some responsibility for even the development of the list those target accounts and even those prospects that they want to invite. I'm interested in the channels that you used for that. I imagine our not traditional like demand Jin channels. You weren't going out broad or maybe even, at that point, it sounds like maybe a few years ago, even using account base marketing like tech to serve ads or anything. Was this very one to one or what were the channels? Yeah, it was pretty one to one and we called it Sam and and steak dinners, not search terms. It was very much kind of this one to one and so we had a couple of different approaches. One was obviously working with the sales organization in the sales leaders to find their target list of companies that they would want it in there. So that was number one. Number two is we made heavy use of our st our team for those top of funnels, and that was really an effective way to get those people engaged in like that offer that we were talking about, like cut you off or something to those people. So that was basically calls and emails, right, and we built out some really effective nurture tracks that were custom around that. And then we did do some select display advertising to promote the event itself to build awareness. So we did have a digital ass fact of that as well. Very cool. Can I ask, did you serve that up on a particular piece of technology, like a terminus or something like that? Now, it was before terminus, but if it was, if terminus was around at the time, I think that would have been something we would have definitely used. Sure, we've seen some success with our friends of role works as well, and we live in a very blessed age, you could say, where we have a bunch of technology that can do a lot of things. Of maybe before we're more manual. So it's great that you're able to pull that off and before those technologies came out. Yeah, this is a different campaign, but we've used terminus and role works and there was another company we had used that at one point for that targeted display advertising for our deals in the pipeline and they weren't necessarily ABM large deals like huge enterprises, but they were more mid market and we did some pretty effective ab testing on that and we did see a lift actually in close rates over a period of time. Not Dramatic but we did see two percentage points. When you think about that in...

...the context of a twenty percent close rate kind of goal, it was materials. It changed our thinking a little bit on those technologies. We thought about them as a mechanism to help close more deals. Certainly they can be helpful from an ABM and going after enterprise deals, but we actually saw that as a mechanism to improve our close rates as well. Kevin, you just buried a gem right in the middle of the internew this is great. I love it. I'm sure that everyone's going to appreciate that thought because we all think of it at least the initial thought of let's use this for top of funnel, let's get for awareness, maybe to drive to some end of a campaign. But if it's staying in front of them mid funnel. It's great thought. Yeah, I love ABM. I think it's great. We've had a ton of success working on ABM strategies. When we look at the tactics of ABM, the tactics of ABM on what makes a successful ABM program aren't new, right. It's all like good sort of digital marketing, and that's what led us to say, wait a second here. Yes, it can be effective for top of funnel, but why wouldn't we use this to improve our close rates for mid market deals? Right, why wouldn't we use that to improve our MTL to meeting book conversion rates and support the SD ours? And we've done enough test over the years to know that's been highly effective for us. Fantastic. Yeah, that's a great learning so, diving back into this campaign, obviously that they have been probably dozens or hundreds of campaigns that you've run or overseen directly. What made this one stand out as a particularly interesting or successful one in your mind? Number one, it stood out because we were all aligned. Everybody within marketing was aligned, the sales team was aligned. We are marching towards the same goal in the same outcome and I think that's seems pretty basic. But sometimes, and I've made this mistake before, we're you're running marketing programs and campaigns and they just don't lock into what the sales team needs. So I think that number one was there was alignment. Number two was it was a campaign that drove a lot of internal excitement.

Like we had people going out to these great venues, we had people going out to these great dinners, we had marketers who are getting exposure to some of these great prospects of great companies that they typically wouldn't get exposure to except maybe at an annual user conference. Sure, and so the second part of that was just as excitement and enthusiasm. It drove across the group and it was solving one of our biggest problems, which is how do we really start to close and bring down these big enterprise deals and so rex it. There's a lot of hard work underneath that and there's a lot of coordination in alignment, but it was like we were aligned with say bills. We agree to what the success was up from and it drove a ton of excitement enthusiasm across the organization. Got People really excited. That makes sense from the type of campaign it was, the excitement around it. was there also some internal selling of this? Did you have to champion this into more conversations and get people to have some buzz around the office about it? Absolutely, and I think we recognize that. When we reached out to different sales leaders who had different perspectives of how to use that event interesting and they were all excited. But there were some of our sales folks that said, I'm owning this, I know this customer, this prospect, I'm going to bring this one in. So we didn't need to sell it as much to those folks. What we had to sell was our capability to deliver a great experience to that person or two, not that person, but to their prospects, because if they were going to bring in these prospects that were huge deals, they wanted to make sure it was the flawless event. In some cases we had to sell the value to some folks, but I think the sales leaders got it, they understood it. What we really would had to sell was our capability that we were going to get people, we are going to live a great event and the great event. Last thing you want when you're doing an event is having five people in a sixty person room. So they wanted to make sure that we could have the capability, yes, to get quality, but also get that quantity and make it a really successful event. That makes sense and and digging in, just one last tactical question, for my own benefit, maybe...

...more than everyone else, but I'm very, very interested in this. As you were developing this campaign and planning with the sales team, was it a lot of regular, coordinated meetings, or was it more handle over email and chat, or did you guys have to do a lot to coordinate on this, or was a very obvious who would be handling what? No, there was a lot of coordination and there's a sequence. Okay, we're going to do this. We got commitment for the top. That's always important. We work through the sales organization and then when we got our sales reps in place, like the area managers that were responsible, that one of the own the events that required not daytoday contact, but we were constantly in discussions around okay, who's coming, where do we need to go, where are we we who hasn't called? And there was a lot of coordinations along with the sales development team as well, because they were trying to get people in setting up those regular recurring meetings, having like quick sprint goals of every three days. We want to get this done. Is the invitation. How have followed up on the ability? Like all those things become really important as part of that project plan. Yeah, that's really helpful. I know, getting any tactical insight we can into how you manage such a complex campaign with multiple stakeholders. It's always helpful for the audience here. So I appreciate you breaking it down a little bit further. If you could do it over again, which I imagine you've had many opportunities to try this, did you learn anything that? Hey, we would have pulled this lever differently or maybe gone over here and done something strategically different? Nope. I've deployed this model to other companies since then and rex I think my lesson is do it sooner, do it more often and don't hold back on sort of quality of the event. The more events we did, the nicer events we did. We completely change the dynamic internally where maybe in some cases we were trying to find a salesperson to partner with. And if do you do a couple successful events, the sales people are looking for you and saying I want to do Atlanta and in Atlanta I'm going to so they were teeing it up for us nice. That's when I...

...knew we want, and I've done this at other companies too, and it's just there's a pride of ownership for the Sales Worg to deliver an outstanding event where they can invite their prospects because it's great for their brand. Yeah, and so my thing was, like I said, do it sooner, do it more often and don't spare expenses. Like you. You spend a couple of extra thousand dollars, you could make that from a really nice event to something really special. You'll get the return on that, no problem. Yeah, that totally makes sense, especially with the way you guys were targeting accounts and working with sales to make sure you weren't bringing too many of the you're bringing all the right people to the table. It's great. Yeah, almost every time I've done this there's a little bit of work you got to do. You want getting clarity on success and in one extreme it's you invite people, do it dinner and the contracts are over there by the coat room. How many contracts did you sign that day? That's not the plant. That's not the goal there, right. That's not really the approach. The other hand was, hey, we got fifty people there and we're not really sure where they ended up in the pipeline and but we got fifty people that. That's like the other extreme, and I think what we learned was really breaking it down between top and bottom of funnel, like who are the prospects that we haven't really engaged with? It are on our target list that we want to start to build a relationship with, except percent, let's get x percent of those that track those people through the pipeline and the people that we know are expected to close this quarter or next quarter or whatever your time frame is. Do we see an uptick in close rates versus cities and areas where we haven't had people attend those events? And those are typically the some of the best measure of success, because you might not close all your deals of those people that attended, but if you're closing those deals at a higher percentage than prospects that haven't been to those events, then we're onto something special there. Yeah, it's interesting. That reminds me a lot of what we've learned with the gifting strategy that we've deployed it open sense and with other companies that have heard of the point. A similar thought process in terms of the different stages in the funnel where you can deploy gifting and that sort of of like surprise and delight type program does it have an immediate hey, did they sign because...

...we send them this gift when they have the contract in hand? Obvious return on the investment, but should you be tracking it instead of just saying, Hey, we're just sending out a bunch of gifts? There's just that middle ground. We have to make sure to cover both ends of that totally makes sense in the build on that point. It's also depends on the problem you're trying to solve, right, because the gifting might be a great way to get people into the funnel if you're struggling to get people into the funnel and then over time you can see how they convert from top of funnel to bottom and see if there's a different it's conversely, if you're struggling closing deals or people are getting stuck in the middle of the funnel, that's an effective strategy to and I think that's always like looking back at sort of successful campaigns. It's what's the problem you're solving for? And it's always interesting to ask folks what a success look like, because you will get you'll get some different answers and you, everybody should be crystal clear on what success looks like for these events or marketing programs and campaigns. Totally agreed. Maybe zooming out from this campaign then and thinking more broadly about growth marketing, right, and we think of growth marketing is any marketing effort or any marketer whose mentality is one of growth. That could be you better entrenching yourself within your market place, better positioning so that you can grow at a more rapid pace, or obviously, sales metrics. So what's maybe one thing that growth marketers out there are doing that they should stop doing or aren't yet doing that they should consider doing? Yeah, so my general sort of like philosophy on growth marketing is diversity, diversification, and where I have seen companies be less successful than they like is when they're highly dependent on one channel within growth marketing. Interesting, so eighty percent of their demand or the pipeline comes from a single source? Yep, and that's fine, that's great, but that's really just step one. What they need to be constantly building is what's the next channel that's going to drive...

...material pipeline and revenue? What's the next channel after that? And so rex, the problem that I have seen, the mistakes that I've made and others have made. That I've seen is number one, you rely too long on that single channel and at some point you're getting to a growth rate and sort of a level of growth and revenue that that single channel will never be able to help. You grow to new to grow at two thousand and twenty five three percent. Yeah, the complete opposite end of that problem, and this is a problem I've made as well. So, or the mistake I've made, so you know, is Gosh, we need diversification across nine channels. Let's slaw launch like the eight other channels next week and you end up in a total disaster and then you spend the rest of your time trying to unravel what you've done. And I believe that what marketers, growth, marketers need, whether it's a demand gen program it's a brand campaign, it's customer like, whatever it is that you're doing, you really need to think about phases of how you launched these channels and these channels can be there fully operational. They're hitting all of our targets and there's room for growth. Let's keep rolling and doing that. That sustained. There may be channels that you need to launch and you're in a pilot, but you want to focus on those because its going to take a lot of effort to move that from pilot to sort of delivering results, to sustainable results, and so the mistake I think markers will do is try and do all of those at once and then you're not really clear what stage you're in and you're getting these programs R on that you could easily optimize and get performance out of, but because you're so worried about standing up the next one and the next program and the next activity, you can't go back to optimize. And then you have a lot of programs that are performing at suboptimal levels. And I can tell you that might work for a quarter or two, the board will eventually catch on. You will eventually be presenting this in some format other than story based where you have to own up to some of those figures in those numbers and as a numbers got yourself. I'm sure you have been able to see that when you don't have the right numbers, I can be a very uncomfortable conversation or presentation to have.

Yeah, and right. You bring up a good point. Right, because a some of those tactics can work for a quarter or two and actually, what the fool's gold in that is it will look awesome in the first quarter too, because it's like wow, Kevin has come in, he's launched eight new channels for us. Yeah, in less than thirty days. And what's going to it'll catch up to you soon where you realize, like, I can't optimize this, we're spending more money than we should, we're not hitting our economics targets, if there are not hitting our production targets, and it doesn't set you up for a sustainable long term success will run. Yeah, I think having that, that long term mindset, will be very useful, especially as those of us were practitioners are moving into leadership and not just thinking about the how do I have the splashiest entrance, which is very tempting. Right, marketing has a lot of opportunity for splash. We can do a lot of things that look look, they have a lot of sizzle but not a lot of stake. Yeah, and you bring up a good point, because you could end up running like you could start on the first quarter and say, Hey, we got one channel, we're adding all these other a channels. Sometimes that's pressure from the board, sometimes that's pressure from the CEO, it's pressure from the Sales Org. There's this push on marketing, the shiny new object syndrome, where marketers are susceptible to clinging on to the next shining object and saying this is going to solve all the world's problems. Sales will do that in the last marketing to execute on that. So sure, that's a very real problem. And so what ends up happening? Even if you're a marketer and you don't want to launch all these new programs, sometimes you're forced to. Your hand is forced to do that. And what you end up having to do because you want to be flexible and accommodative. You don't want to shut down every new idea. What I have learned there is defining success, like I was talking about before. So if we are going to launch this program what is success look like to you? What the success look like at week one week two week four, and I think that keeps everybody on the same page, because otherwise what happens is you could launch some...

...of these programs, they're not successful and then everybody's trying to figure out, like, what happened. So setting expectations on some of these new things can be really important because, let's face it, you've been in marketing and sales, the pressures on and almost every day there's a new suggestion on what you need to do. Yep, Yep. One of the most dangerous slack channels for everyone to be invited to is that marketing channel, and every one has an idea, everybody has an opinion. That's great. Yeah, somebody told me once that everybody is a marketer at heart, so they think they can do marketing well and nobody ever goes to the CFO and questions their accounts receivable strategy. Tokay, but everybody has an opinion about marketing and sales, and I think that's what's actually cool, though, because you get a lot of good feedback and you get a lot of opportunities to improve and try new and different things. The risk there is you try lots of new, different things and you don't successfully nail any one of those. That's a great reminder, a great lesson. Let's break down a little bit of where your team is at right now. The size of the team, what components of the teams you have staff for right now? I think this is one of my favorite parts of these interviews. I get to learn a lot about how leaders are thinking about building teams around these initiatives. So what is the size and kind of structure of your marketing team right now, knowing that you're an internal agency? Yeah, so the way we structure the team is you will have a VP director level, we have a manager level and a sort of an analyst level, and we will have the same structure for all the different channels that we participated. So paid search or it paid social week, love with Linkedin, facebook, Youtube. That's like a separate email. Nurture, ABM, field marking, like all those will have that same structure. Yeah, in WREX will we really try to do because we work on so many different companies and we want to build that sort of scale. The analyst we have worked with a very specific sort of workflow, daily workflow that they need to go through so that they're continually focused on optimizing these programs, these campaigns. The managers are essentially coaching the analyst on how to do that and make sure they're...

...in their lanes and doing all the right things and always looking for opportunities to optimize either the work that we do or specific optimization opportunities, and the directors and VP's that are thinking about the broader goals of like how are we doing in terms of our production? How are we doing in terms of our unit economics, and so I like to think about organizing the teams and that sort of structure. In that approach. Is there a particular like golden ratio? You found this many VPS to directors to associates, or, sorry, VPS and directors to managers to associates? Yeah, it's a good question. I would say generally one, two and four works and you can start to scale from that depending on where, like the size of these some of these programs. Yeah, where that gets tricky, REX, is where you're at and that sort of evolution of that channel. If that's run rate, then the one, two and four probably is more than fine. Yeah, but if you're trying to build this up and you are not sure how, like you're in that pilot phase or optimization phase, you actually might be a bit more top heavy with some people who are viewers and strategists, and so I always try to remind myself of like where we are in that process, because that will end up becoming changed kind of the the work, not the workflow, but the other ratio a little bit more, because because you if you're trying to figure out something and it's hard work, and we know that's hard work to figure out some of these new channels, to stand them up and make them successful, it's unlikely that a brand new analyst will be able to do a lot of that themselves. So you need get subject matter expert, a bit more of an experienced person who's connecting the strategy to the tactics and figuring out how this is going to work. Makes Total Sense. I love how you broke that down depending on the stage of development that you're out with each channel. That makes perfect sense also. Kevin, thank you for being on the show. We greatly appreciate your wisdom and insight here. Who are some other marketers out there who you maybe look up to, that you've perhaps even worked or with or mentored in the past, or those who we should be...

...aware of and maybe even invite on the show. I'll tell you one of my you go through your career and you always have these great career experiences and you work for certain incredible people, and so one of the folks that was like instrumental in my long term success was Tim Copp who was the CMO when I was at exact target. He want to become a VC in Chicago and now was the CEO of terminus, and what's interesting is he's bringing back some of the old band from the exact target days to terminus. So there's some really great people that are over there now. Sangram, who I worked with the opportunity to work with it exact target. Daniel, who's to see about like that. That's a bit of a top like. That's a bit of a heavy sort of terminus thing. But yeah, these are guys that I really respect and they do great things and I'm always learning from following them on social and everything like that. Great recommendation. Yeah, those are great folks. Try to think other folks along the way. Another person I've worked with for a long time is Jeremy Collins. I think he's probably one of the sharpest minds you've got around marketing, building out organizations, demand generation, this connection between sales and marketing. He's just really great at thinking through some of those like challenges in those problems. Having Seen Jeremy Work, I agree with you and will definitely invite him on the show. I think they'd be a fantastic get. We'd love to hear from him. Kevin, thank you so much again for your time. And when people want to go learn from more from you, maybe follow you online and certainly learn more about the area software experience and brand. Where can they find more information about you guys? They can find a be specifically on twitter, by hit me up on Linkedin and then that they want more on the area story. We think about as the Netflix of software, so they can always go to our website and learn more about that story. So very cool and that's oreacom. That's right, perfect, very good, Kevin. Thanks again for joining us and we appreciate your insights. Thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you would give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to get a little more inspiration for their next campaign. If you want to learn more about the company behind the show, had to open sensecom. That's OPEEN S E and s ECOM will...

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