Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 37 · 9 months ago

A Sneak Peek Into Pendo’s Jellyfish Model for Product Marketing

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

You might argue that pizza and software have nothing in common, but we beg to differ. Put your seatbelts on; you’re in for a wild ride. In this episode of Growth Marketing Camp, we are building a little universe with Marcus Andrews, Director of Product Marketing at Pendo.io. He took all the best bits and pieces from his time at HubSpot, expanded on them, and put his learnings to work when he joined Pendo. In this episode, Marcus shares insights on his Jellyfish model for product marketing and the importance of empathy and storytelling. If you’re wondering how to launch a product that will stand out from the sea of conformity and meet the needs of the changing world, you’re at the right place. Let’s break through the noise together! Tune in and enjoy!

Welcome to growth marketing camp, or we sit down with our favorite marketers to do mystify growth and give you the insights to help turn your next campaign into a major success. Let's get into it already, everybody. This is bobby and range, host of growth marketing camp. I am so excited today to be joined by Marcus Andrews. He is the director of product marketing at Pendo. Marcus, thanks for being us with us today. UMP to be here. Bobby, thanks for having me on added to chat. Yeah, awesome. Well, love to just start off today by giving the audience a bit of an introduction to yourself and in your background, if you tell us a little bit about sort of where you've been and where you are now. Yeah, I'll give you the the quick versions. On the Director Product Marketing at Pendo. I've been at Pendo for about a year and a lead a team of product marketers launching products, for positioning products, bringing products market, telling stories, doing all the things at p MM's do. Before that, I was at hub spot for five and a half years and in Boston to work remote for Pendo now, but I've been in Boston for done two stints here, but have been here for I think around six years now. So I was at hub spot for five and a half years. Did PDUCT marketing there the whole time and I also have it did a stint in as St Francisco Bay area. So I worked at a startup called wildfire that was acquired by Google and I was a wildfare was actually in the services team and then it's sort of started doing like sales and enable mint stuff and storytelling and building decks, and then I'm like, what am I doing here? What is this job? And it's sort of kind of figured out that it was products marketing and I'm like, I want to do this, I love this work, this is awesome. It's a good like match of my skill set to like with the work. And so figured out how to do that once we were acquired by Google and moved into that role and then did product marking for the whole time I was at hub spot. So that's my quick journey. Cool. It's really interesting to hear that your work actually inspired you to find this particular role and it's also interesting to know that that role existed, like it wasn't something yet did invent necessarily. So that's that's pretty fortuitous. Yeah, it was good. It's well, it was nice. It's nice to be as product marketing is like it's changing and emerging a less. So it's like you can shape it, you know, it's not like it's kind of it's a lot like growth in marketing in that perspective. You know, it's not setting stone. You can shape it a lot. So, but yeah, for sure, cool. Well, I definitely want to dig into the role of Product Marketing in general. I believe you are our first product marketer on the show and so there's naturally yeah, there's naturally a lot that that I'm curious about and I'm sure audience will be too. But before we get into that, you're now at Pendo. I believe I read that pend of recently surpassed to her million Rur with nearly three billion dollar valuation and it is very much the champion of product led growth. Can you tell us a little bit about Pendo, the mission and, and I'm not sure, I mean it seems to me like maybe like product marketing and pend to actually go very much handinhand end in some ways. Yeah, they do. I mean our mission...

...and kind of how we think about Pendo is like we're trying to elevate the world's experience with software and just make it better. We're like we're essentially software that makes your software better, and we do that in a lot of different ways, but the biggest way, I think we do that is just by like being advocate for products led businesses and product led companies. And it's much more than product led growth. You know, I think when you think about a product led company, sure they've got a growth team that is using really smart modern ways of like growing the company through the product, but also their services team. You know, they're using the product to eliminate manual human work and deliver better support experience in APP. Usually product. They've got a strong product marketing team that's doing their thing with the product and it like you also see that with the sales motion. So it's sort of a modern company that's operating a little bit differently, doing things a little bit differently, very much more products led versus sales led or marketing led. Those are the kind of companies that really get a ton of value out of Pendo because of the tools that we offer, which our product analytics in APP guides, product feedback and sentiment analysis, and it's all kind of a suite to really help those companies go products led and transform their business towards that, which a lot of companies are doing. I mean, I'm sure you've seen it, but it seems like just about any young startup that's and we have a big variety of customers, but you see, all these startups are starting their business there almost all products led, you know, they're almost all they've got smaller sales teams, they've got smaller services teams, they've got a free product. You know, they operate a lot differently and those are the type of companies that I think, like eventually every software company, but also like every company, I think, is going to kind of migrate and transformed businesses like that. So, yeah, that's a lot about what we're doing. Yeah, so I'm curious about that because I think I've read one of your Linkedin Post that said something along the lines of every company is is a software company, and I know you mentioned that a lot of sort of product first type companies or startups, tech companies. They're probably in the sweet spot for for Penda right now, but I guess when you look at call them like older companies that are more traditional, and I'm being sales and marketing led or that's sort of like the orientation of to go to market motion. How do you see that transition? Is it that it's a matter of iterating your business lines or product lines that are more product led, or is there a way to do a broad transformation of these businesses? I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on that. It's certainly a broad question, but I just curious about that. Yeah, so, I mean it's for most companies a really big transformation. But just to breakdown what you're talking about, it's that like the main way people experience almost any company at this point is through technology. And like you can be like what are you talking about? Every company is a software company. But a couple of examples are like Domino's pizza. Yeah, like Mediocre Pizza, not great pizza, and that's their product. You think you would be like, Oh, I want pizza, I want the best pizza, but domino's...

...is doing really, really well because they have the pizza tracker and they have this awesome APP and like, like I've learned recently that Taco bell has a really cool APP apparently, and like people love it. And like you think about your bank and like what what used to be the value prop of a bank used to be. You know, do they have really good service? Do I like the teller is like an eight? Is the ATM close to like when we were in college, right of the ore ATMs, close to where I can go and I can get money? That doesn't exist anymore. Now it's like you choose your bank because they have a really good APP and they have a online experience that you like. It's like that is the shift that we're talking about, and that's what I mean by like every company is a software company and sooner or later you got to figure that out and you could be in any space. Like banks are good example, like if you don't deliver that great online or software experience, your toast, you know, it's just like that. You're and like that's coming for everybody. That shit has kind of coming for everybody. Not to be negative, but that's what we help people and kind of that's good that it's digital transformation, but it's more than that. I think it's product led. That's where religion helpcoms. Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. I was just on a flight recently on united, which I think by default you end up on united half the time, just given their reach, and that's usually something that I'm not thrilled about. However, I did find the experience of interacting with united through their APP to be actually quite pleasant and convenient and intuitive, and that very much changes my perception of that brand. For instance. Yes, and we all, like people, have super high expectations here. Absolutely used to like amazing software all the time because we get it on our IPHONE, we get it through Netflix, we get in through, like you know, apple and Amazon and facebook. All these companies deliver amazing experience and so like sets the expectation bar really high and if you experience any little piece of weird friction in that United App, you like, uh, you know, yeah, that's just where we're people are at today. Yeah, yeah, there's a there's probably some social commentary we can extrapolate from this part of the conversation. If you can, we can hold on for another interview another day. But really awesome and in congratulations to you in the team. That's that's tremendous and, I think, a really amazing benchmark that you don't see it a ton out there. So so really great work to you in the team. I would be remiss if I didn't take advantage of the fact that again we have a director of Product Marketing on growth marketing camp today. I am very curious. Is Selfish of me, I want to know when it comes to product marketing, when it comes to, say, launching a new product, is there a general framework that you think about? I mean, I can't imagine what you're doing is templated, but perhaps I'm just just curious. Product comes student says we've got something new, were bringing a market. Where do you go from there? What are your next steps like? What is what does that process look like at a high level? Yeah, there's this. I have this, I gotta I should post it on Linkedin. I posted some drawing...

...of it. There's like this Jelly Fish model that I think is like a good one and you can you can like adapt it to you know, all the growth marketers at hub spot, they had all these cool names for their like models. So like there was like the barbel model and there was like the surround sound model and stuff. So I'm not as smart as them, but I have the jellyfish and I should them. I need to popularize that. But the jellyfish is like basically you should start with positioning. There's a really good book. There's a lot of good positioning books, but it's really like modern positioning book by this woman April Dunford, and she talks about positioning and like that's just the first important step. You know, when a product, when your PM comes to you and they're like hey, we've got this new product that we're going to launch, usually that thing. You know, product teams. They will they will deeply understand the problem and they will build something to solve the problem. But then defining, like what is this thing like? What is it do for? Who is positioning right? So it's like yet we have to define like and that can really change a product. You know, you can take something that it's like, oh, hey, this is a notes APP and you could say no, this is collaboration for banks, you know, or something like that, and it's like it really flips the it gives things a lot more direction, and so product marketing teams come in and they help with that. So it's like you take this nebulous product that that does something important and you give it a position, and the easiest way to define positioning is just like who it does, for what that had the more clear that that is, and the more you get that right, then all of a sudden that it just feels like, you know, if things just start to happen really good things start to happen really naturally. It just seems like you have product market fit, like you have a salesperson and they get on a call the right customer and they tell them this product does, is going to do x Y Z for you and the person gets it because you've clearly positioned it. So positioning is the first step usually for prof marketing teams. I want to ask you about that before if there are additional or subsequent steps. I've heard many times in marketing that defining your segments, defining your customer as precisely as possible. Enough, granular is the right word, but defining your segments precisely is the best way to kind of message to those segments. Is that principle apply for product is product marketing as well, or is there some caveats to that that you need to think about now? I think I mean, I think so for sure. I mean you don't want to Overdo it at first. I suppose right. You don't want to like over position it because, like it's good to have some wiggle room and be able to go out into the market. Yeah, and get feedback and let learn about something you know. But for sure the more the better you understanding you have of your ICP and persona, the easier it's going to be to build the right products and market them in the right way. So I would agree with that. Okay, okay, cool, okay. So defining, defining the sort of market, what it does for who, is kind of like the first step. there. Let's assume the company has done that or that you've done that exceedingly. Will is then just a matter,...

I guess, functionally. Are you then collaborating with other members of the marketing team or or, I guess, what is it look like from that point operationally? Yes, so, so positioning is kind of like it's foundational. It's almost like plumbing. You work really tightly with product to aligne. On what the thing is, and then you get on the same page and it's helpfall. Then you turn that into a story. Okay, like positioning is awesome, it's really helpful, it's interesting, but it's not if you if I go to my you know, a blog or content creator, and I say Hey, I've got the positioning for this product. Let's walk through it. They're like cool, this is great, and I go to them with a story that's rooted in the positioning. All of a sudden, you know, these synapps is start happening in their brain and they get excited and they figure it out and then they can do their job really, really well. So take that positioning, do a good job with it, but then turn it into a story. Same thing of sales people. Right that you go to sales people with like a very technical product update and then how you're going to position that? They fall asleep. If you go to them with this exciting story that's easy to understand, it's easy to follow. That's naturally how people learn and communicate. We can tell in stories for whatever, thousands and thousands of years. It resonates with people and if you do it well, it communicates everything and you're positioning that you need to. You know, through the form of the story, build your positioning with product product urting, turns it into a story and they take that out to the different internal teams. Internal Marketing is a big part of it and have been. The third step really is like a launch. Product launches are a great way to align teams and I think product launches are had they happened differently at every company, but I think they can really become like an operating system for a company where it's like, you know, every every quarter we have this many launches or we have this one launch or like, you know, and it becomes this like cadence of how things work. And and what it's helpful about that is it just breaks through the noise. You know a lot of companies, everybody struggles to break through the noise today, and product launches are a good way to do that because it like, instead of this ongoing stream of updates, you have these like really focused points of updates. So yeah, yeah, I had a conversation with a growth marketer at panda doc recently and he calls these forcing functions where essentially you define a thing that's going to happen in a quarter and everybody's efforts end up aligning towards that that thing. And and it's just one of these ways that you can get disparate teams with different objectives all focus towards this one thing, like a product launch. It the way that you're describing it though, like it almost sounds like the purpose of the company is just to continue to launch your product. Is that right? I mean, is that the set? A way to think about it, like, you know, because if you're just lining up quarterly sort of product releases, I mean I guess that kind of makes sense, right if you're a technology company like to some extent. Hey, I'm not that. I'm not a CEO, I'm not a founder, I'm just here too. I mean, I think part of a good thing that product marketer should bring is like alignment and in momentum, and that's as hard. I mean it's really like usually you're fighting. That's always the battle for every company, right is like alignment. You have forcing functions, you have all these teams, everybody ends up doing...

...their own thing. You lose momentum, you lose alignment. So it's a good tool for that. It's it like you can definitely overdo it. It could definitely become a negative problem. Usually it's like the opposite. You're just trying to get people on the same page, focused on there's other ways to do it too. Yeah, yeah, now it's all very interesting, you know, particularly you know open sense. We have a handful of products that we're looking to bring to market next year. And so again, I told you, this is selfish in some ways. So everyone, and that's you know, this as aspect I conversation, my podcast I have. I was a high hosted a podcast for at the beginning of the pandemic. I started winner in it for like a year and it was amazing because you get to learn selfishly. Learned from all these yeah, that's you want to and it's great. Yeah, yeah, well, I'm again. So we'll sort of turn it from its still be selfish. Let me, let me be honest. So you talk about sort of you talk about the story, okay, and and how it relates to product positioning. I want to kind of make sure we highlight this because I know this is a big part of what you believe, just based on what I've been able to clean in my just immediate research on your background. But it's concept of narrative design versus traditional product positioning. I know you talked about the importance of the story just now, but can you just define for audience like the difference between the two and to sort of compare them? Just want to make sure that the clearly articulated in a framework for people to think about. Yes, for sure. So my thinking on it has evolved. I wrote this piece that got a lot of attention, which I'm glad and I still I still believe in it. But it's not product positioning versus narrative design. That, like product positioning, is the right place to start in the narrative design evolves from that. Sure, the jellyfish, like I was talking about guys, but a lot of people, like I, think product positioning bad. Product positioning sort of became the default in marketing and products marketing and narrative design is an evolution of that. And so, like product positioning usually brings companies to the same place. So that's like, Hey, we're going to understand their buyer, we're going to figure out their needs, we're going to build a story that talks about how our solution answers their needs. Like you look everywhere in be Tobe, Sass especially, you look at websites. It's problem solution, absolutely and everybody has this like and if you're in the same space as everybody else, everybody's deploying the same product positioning, the same technique. It's it's just everybody's got the same message on their website. It's a sea of conformity, absolutely, like that's still that's where we're at right now. And narrative design it basically says like we're going to understand the status quo in our space and I'm going to do something radically different. And so we're going to think of we're going to really design our narrative instead of just adopting what's out there in the space. So it's not problem solution, which is where most people like promise. Solution can be good, it's just you're never going to get really differentiate and ever really going your story. So narrative design, what it does is it it's a framework for telling a story that is going to be different. It's going to...

...break you free of this. And what it does is it you kind of build this little universe. Right. So I've done a lot of writing about it, constant about it, but there's five basic steps to it and the first two are really the most important, which are like you understand, you got to understand like the world is constantly changing everywhere, in the last two years more than ever probably, but that's not going to stop right. So it's like the most important part of narrative design is really understanding the change in the world that's most relevant for your audience and then figuring out how to adapt to that. And so, you know, for Pendo as an example, like we were talking about this, like more companies are becoming software companies. It's more important to become products led. Its massive change in the world. It's undeniable. It's not our change. We have identified it and we write about it and we talked about it a lot. But the big thing that we then do is say, like all right, well, we're going to do is Pendo, as we know, we care about this change. We're going to study the companies who are adapting the best, who are doing things differently, and we're going to try and pull apart the things that they're doing and we're going to we're going to give it to you as like a way to adapt and then telling a very different story. Right. So it's like hey, is this big, scary, scary, but there's big there's a lot of opportunity as part of it too, in this change. It's happening in the world and we have been trying to figure out, like how the best are adapting to it, and that's where you route the story and that's what you end up talking about. So it's not problem solution, age adaptation. And then when you are the one who's like saying this is how the best adapt and if we think that we can help you adapt to that change, and here's how it really changes the narrative. You become like this helpful companion along people's journey instead of telling people they have a problem and that we're going to help you fix it, and you really stand out. Yeah, yeah, two things jump out to me in what you just shared. One is differentiation. I think, to your point, it is sometimes impossible to differentiate the features in solution sets and solutions within define categories, and I think that if you can basically change the conversation or create the story, you're actually doing yourself an incredible service in owning the story and and that in of itself is a differentiation, right. And I think to extrapolate on that. Second thing is that it's not just about pain solution. It's this pain actually has context to a broader change. Right, your pain is a part of a broader change which may include other painful things or other sort of like realities. And we're now telling you the story about this new reality, which also in capitulate, captures your pain right, but it's a broader thing and shows high degrees of empathy and understanding, like what your customer or prospect is dealing with,...

...yes, and then again being able to sort of relate to that. Yes, that's in the key. There is, like the is the empathy, because if you you know, it's like hey, there's it in this change. We see these companies adapting to this change. And then the next step is like, and we know you're probably if you nail the change, everybody's already thinking about it, they already know about it. It's like, Oh, yeah, I know, I gotta figure that one out. And then you you empathize with them about why it's so hard. You say, you know, what you're probably struggling with is like you don't have any insights into your product data, like you have to go through engineering to figure out like how to get this stuff done, like you know, if you nail those, then they're like you see, start to see heads, not yeah, like yes, yes, you, you get me, and then it's like, Hey, I know why it's so hard, and then like look, we've built all these things to help you and it's I mean it's is that problem solution? Like I don't think so. I think it's different, but it's similar for sure. Yeah, okay, this is awesome and again, selfishly, I've got some really awesome ideas that I'm getting this. But I want to get sort of practical here too. So, like, if I'm a marketing team or I'm a product marketer and I have I'm on a marketing team that is launching product. You know, defining this change in the world is obviously a big job. How do you actually go about like assessing the world and then communicating to the world that we know, that we're here to help? I mean, if you do it right, then it's not hard because it is tied to like your company's mission in the focus, like you know, the stuff works best when it comes from the CEO and founders right like it hub spot. It works really, really well because, like I learned a ton of this from Brian Holligan. Like I would go in with my positioning and like storytelling decks and he was like a lot of this started when I went in with this like storytelling deck that I've been working on forever and I brought it into this meeting the executive team and I'm pitching it and the he's just and I'm like this is good, this is going to kill and he's like, you didn't get it. He's like hey, Marcus, want you to put it into this five step process format here, because this is how I think about stuff, and that's when I realize the power of this. But like what he always said, and he learned this from his boss at PTC, I'm pretty sure, is that, like, you got it. You got to think yourself as like a cultural anthropologist, as a CEO and founder and marketer, should constantly be looking for changes in your environment. So when I was at hub spot, we were always keeping our eyes and years open for like, is it snapchat? Is it yum? Is it tick Tock, like what is this stuff that's changing? And Media and marketing and products led to it's like, Oh, product ops teams are growing. Is that like okay? Like product Marney teams like, Oh, bring it, you know, you gotta, you know. So you paying attention to those things and then it becomes a lot easier because it's like, Oh, I see, I'm seeing these changing things happen and then you got to figure out who's doing it well and then you unpack those companies and, like you know, in our space these aren't like pendo customers, but like like slack and hit last see in and like zoom. They've nailed products lead and...

...like products like growth and like what do they do differently than other companies and like how do we unpack that in digest it and then help our larger customers like understand that? So that's kind of how I think about that. Yeah, I think also it's it also gets me thinking from a competitive perspective that if you're not taking the cultural anthropologist approach, you're probably living in a world where it's just you. Maybe you're just sort of blocking out like the changes that may be happening, and that probably is a risk. Right, like, if you're not paying attention to the way the world is changing and and sort of developing the story or the product to sort of meet the needs of the changing world, you're kind of probably in trouble. Yes, totally, and it's hard because it doesn't feel like, you know, it doesn't feel like you're getting shit done when you're thinking about like what's changing in the space in the last five or ten years and like, probably not everybody's job, but I mean it's I think, if you do have that lens on it, you can get out in front of the market, become a leader and, yeah, and tell a story. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, I think about and the less that I'll have on this, but I think about company is like a Uipath, if you're familiar with them, they're and you know, process automation and they were around for a decade before they made their first million and rr now they're a Unicorn mountall ultiple times over. And I think that's just, again, just understanding the changing changing needs and being able to sort of like leverage those like. Yeah, I'll give you one last example on the step, because starts it easy. One understand about how tactical it is. But, like, hub spot knew this when they started. Hub spot just smart founders, right. So, like what they did is they created in bound marketing, which is their new game, their new the way to adapt to a packed marketing space, and they marketed. They put more money and effort into inbound marketing, marketing, inbound marketing than hub spot the brand when they started as a company which is a like feels insane right, like we're going to break into this market not by talking about the company but about this new game that we invented. But marketing automation already existed and there was a lot of competitors, all who had better products than hub spot. Yeah, but they were able to kind of carve their wedge in there and figure it out and now they're like, you know, three thousand forty billion dollar company or something. Love, we love hup spot or users and absolutely have an immense amount of respect for that leadership team, engineering team and product team as well. So that's really cool to hear that. Can you tell me a little about sort of how your role and your team interact amongst the broader marketing team? And there's obviously a storytelling component, but how does that manifest across other marketing functions as well? Yeah, so this is, you know, it's one thing that's different at every company with products marketing, which I wish it wasn't. We need more standardization and product marketing because like nobody understands it and like this is these are part of the reasons why. But products marketing is always a very good partner team. You know if there's a lot of growth people listening. I think one of the best ways for product marketing to work with the marketing team. The growth team is like we were always at home spot and it Pendo. It's less mature, but we're...

...getting there and we're doing interesting things to it. We're very good partner for those teams because usually the growth team will come with, you know, really smart strategy, but they need help sort of like executing on their plays. Is What I've found. So, you know, like we worked really closely with some growth marketers on like our on the growth surround sound strategy and like these listicles that were being created, and so the team would come to us and would be like hey, we want to create a listical around like, you know, the best like inbox software in our services thing, and their first first question is like is that the right category that we're trying to own, or should we should we like try to break in over these other ones and easy answers from product marketing, but then also, if we can, like they write the format and then we would just plug into the into the Google doc and we would like write the content. So I've always found that was a really good way to collaborate with growth marketers as an examples that we can help bring a lot of their strategy to life and also help make it better. So we had a really good partnership. I've always had good partnerships of growth teams from in that way, really hopeful. I'd be remiss if we had an episode of growth marketing camp without bringing up a specific campaign. And obviously we're usually talking to two more traditional growth marketers. However, I think that's a great opportunity to pick your brain on a specific story or campaign that you're particularly proud of and willing to share with us. Is there one that kind of comes to mind? Yeah, so the the example I share the most of a strategic narrative that I've worked on, a narrative that we designed, was like I wasn't at hub spot for the original inbound marketing narrative, but I was there starting in two thousand and fifteen, and in two thousand and eighteen we launched service hub, which was a new product line for HP spot and instead of Lutley. Now, and like this fashion of designing the narrative and not just plugging into the status quo because we knew we couldn't necessarily win in this space if we just said Hey, USBOT and not have software for service teams. You know, we needed to design our narrative. So I worked on that with our founder and a GM and our team, and basically the campaign that we came up with was the flywheel. And so hub spot already has this existing narrative and which is inbound marketing. And there's these different tools that you use while you're playing the game of inbound market sure, and one of those is the funnel. And the marketing funnel is this like, you know, very sacred thing to marketers, which we use to talk about marketing all the time. And the idea was to retire the funnel, to get rid of it, to say it's outdated, which is controversial. That's like, well, what are you doing right? So, boom, we got your attention. Retire it and then introduce a new model. And the new model was the Flywheel, and the marketing fun a great tool. It's just the problem is is that customers aren't represented in the funnel. Sure, there and output of the funnel and that doesn't drive with a changing world, change where customers have more power. Yep, what we've seen is...

...that the smartest companies, those winners, they're adapting by moving their customers to like the center of their operating model, on their growth model, and then sales, service and marketing operate around that. So that was the change in the world that we saw. That was how to adapt. So the change in the world was the customers have more power. How to adapt was the move from funnel to flywheel and then like Oh hey, you can't complete the flywheel without service hub, which is this new product that we just introduced, because we already had a sales and marketing hub and now there's this like missing link there with a Flywheel is incomplete and we completed it with this new thing that you can buy if you're hubs about customer. So that's we did. We launched the Flywheel, we launched service hub to but we launched it through this flywheel. So when sales people, you know so all are marketing, what you saw and the mainstage at inbound was the flywheel with service of coming into it. What our sales people talked about on the phones where like this flywheel model and how you need to have all these different parts. They didn't say, we now have a ticketing system that you can buy. You know, it was just it was part of the this larger store. So fascinating again, just to hear the way that the strategic narrative or the narrative design it changes even the sales conversation. I'm not just doing discovery and providing solutions, I'm storytelling. I'm telling you about the way the world is or or empathizing with you about the way your world is, and here are some things that can help and enablement. was I mean, do you tie this back to training? I'm just wondering how the fly wheel sort of disseminates through the organization to the point where you go to market teams are executing it like you tell a great story. How is that ending up on a sales call? I guess. How does the fly will end up on a salesperson's, you know, tip of their tongue when they're talking to their top prospects? Yeah, so, I mean we've just done a bunch of this with pendo right. So it's like, you know, one of the first things I did was to work on the scales stack when I came in to Pendo, and it's just a great way to introduce the you know, to introduce like what you're all about and like the right way to do it. I think for the fly wheels, kind of a unique situation because sure, as thought was a unique place, but if you're a company that's trying to figure this out, nobody, you know, people want to hear about your products. They don't want a bunch of slides. You know, the sales calls right like you don't want to they don't want to lecture, they don't want to hear to see a bunch of slides, but they do care about your point of view on the space, and so the way to tea it up, I think, is to be like hey, you know, we're pendo. We build software that makes your software better. You know, we're building tools. You're talking to a PDUCT team. We're like, we're building tools that help product managers to your job, but for sure the tools. Just want to tell you a little bit about like our point of view on the space, because I know there's a lot of solutions that you can there's a lot of people building for you right now. So here and then you go and then you've got you've teaed up your narrative and people are you know they care about that. You can do it fast and you got to be able to deliver it and probably like less than five minutes with a couple slides. But people are interested in learning about your company's unique point of view on this space and that's a great conversation for sales to have because instead of starting off with discovery,...

...which most with most sales people do, which is good. Good sales people do great discovery, but if you can get that five minute point of view in there before you do your discovery, all the questions that will come in the discovery will be the questions that you want to hear because you've done the point of view right, you know. Yeah, and if people are like, Oh, I don't I disagree with your point of view, that's that we're looking for, like cool, you just dis qualify them. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, very, very interesting stuff. There's a lot of a lot that you on over here. I think it's really valuable, though, again, operating in the space, for instance, which we do, where there is certainly a competitive landscape, and in there's other categories we'd like to get into, and just understanding the amount of noise they're like. The certainly seems like an approach that I think is it's going to be fun to kind of explore further with our team. Before I let you go, you mentioned a book earlier in our conversation. What was that in? Are there any others that you'd recommended the audience that that have been potentially influential for you? Yeah, so that. I mean there's a there's a lot, but the two that people usually don't talk about that I just would really, really recommend if you want to get into this stuff and want to learn more. One Is April Duneford's book on positioning. It's called obviously awesome. It's really, really, really good. And then Christopher lockhead's group our book played bigger, which will help you understand narrative, and then you can, you know, call me and connect with me on Linkedin, follow me and read the stuff that I write to but those two folks, we've written really, really good books that have been very influential on me for sure. Thanks for sharing those. And just in a quick pruising of Marcus, your linkedin profile and twitter profile you're very active and I think you've got a very unique and smart point of view. Do you want to share your social media handles for the audience as well. Yeah, I'm Marcus underscore injuries on twitter, where there's like a lot of basketball tweets and stuff and like cots. I notice that after a beer too, so watch out for twitter. But yaft and is more. If you want to connect and get more of the stuff that I think about a little harder, you can find me on Linkedin and just Marcus Andrews. Shoot me message. Awesome will marcus. It's been a pleasure chatting with you. Really do appreciate you sharing some of your insight. I know I've learned a lot and and I'm sure our audience is going to walk away with some some valuable information today as well. Thanks, Bobby. Is Super Fun Awesome. Thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, would love it if you'd give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to give a little more inspiration for their next campaign. If you want to learn more about the company behind the show, had to open sensecom. That's Ope, en se n Secom will catch you on the next episode.

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