Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 50 · 1 month ago

B2B Marketing is Broken - Here's How Chris Walker Would Fix It

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Chris Walker needs no introduction but if you wanted one, he’s the CEO of Refine Labs, an engineer, artist, content creator, entrepreneur, business person, and our newest guest on this week’s episode of Growth Marketing Camp. With a strong point of view, a unique perspective, and the ability to look at the business holistically, he has uncovered the weak spots in B2B marketing and offers an infallible solution - demand generation.

Chris shares how bringing his engineer's mindset into marketing has helped him observe things at the systems level, analyze them, and determine the best path for business growth. He also shares tips on creating demand, the key to standing out and effectively capturing attention, and the importance of dark social. Tune in and enjoy!

Welcome to growth marketing camp, or we sit down with our favorite marketers to do mystify growth and give you the insights to help turn your next campaign into a major success. Let's get into it. What's up everybody? This is bobby the ring, cohost of growth market a KIMP by A. Super excited to be joined by Chris Walker. He is CEEO over fund lass. Chris, welcome to the show. Hey, bobby, really happy to be here and looking forward to I dine into that. Yeah, absolutely, I am eager to dive in as well. Like I think one of the things that excites me about our conversations today is it's pretty clear that you're you've got some pretty strong convictions about the current state of bpces marketing and that definitely want to dig into that. But before we do that, maybe it actually even before I ask any questions, give our audience just to, I don't know, Thirtyzero foot view of who you are and what you do. Yeah, sure, I would consider myself an engineer and artist, the content Creator and entrepreneur and a businessperson. So like the in a rat, the different ways, coming from a background of engineering and then product development and product management and then moving into mainly like, I would say, marketing and then owning a business. But I believe that I have a view that is unique from others, having the broad breath of the view of a business and looking at a business holistically versus looking at it of like my little piece of marketing or my little piece of sales. And when you broad in the Lens, you really use you you see different things. So I think, given just like my badge point, how I look at things in my experience has given me a really unique perspective about the things that are working and the things that are and be to be marketing today. I mean, I appreciate that overview and and actually it speaks to the first thing I wanted to ask about, which was your experience as an engineer, because I think it's fascinating to understand that your you've transition in your career for engineer to product Marketer, to Marketer to entrepreneur and...

...business owner. But you touched on a little bit, but I want to dig in a little bit, a little bit more in terms of, you know, what it means to bring engineers mindset into like a marketing role and ultimately, obviously business owner. But I mean I imagine the components systems and being able to have a broad view and how understand how things are all interplaying together. I imagine that's part of it. But do you might maybe six strapolating that on that a little bit of but on how your experience is an engineer has maybe impacted your capabilities as a business owner and marketer? Yeah, I mean I think looking at things at a systems level, looking at things from a really technical perspective, understanding the metrics of one part of a system and how that may or may not impact metrics and another part of the system, depending how the system is designed. It gives you a really interesting way to dissect a business and understand what are the most what are the best avenues for growth right now, in the mid term and in the long term. And I've been doing that in my career since two thousand and twelve, before like I had any real like experience. Companies would bring me in and I would go and I'd be they would hire me to do something which is like a give you an example. In two thousand and thirteen they hired me to like fix this quality control problem and manufacturing right, and so I got it there. And in two weeks I'm like, this quality control problem has no business value. Riley of a zero, zero, one percent defects. It's just what's leave it at that. But over here we're spending four or five times as much on materials as we should be and it's killing our gross margins. So what if we just went over here, we started resourcing these parts and, instead of US costing US eleven dollars to make this piece that we're going to sell for sixty, at cost US two dollars? And then you can think about how the growth that kind accelerating the company when you improve gross margins at that bubble. Yeah, and that. Nobody told me to do that right. It just felt intuitive. So that's one way. I just like going into a business understanding, but here is a big opportunity and then I just can't sit. Like, from two thousand and fourteen onwards, I just saw the same pattern of beating it. Companies. You know how to do sales, they can't figure out how to do marketing. They think that they have a sales problems. They're hiring sandword sales training and they're hiring more...

...stards and they're hiring a new crow and they're doing everything to try to fix the sales part. And what's really broken is that biers are doing things differently and fires meet marketing in the journey and marketings not doing real marketing. And so I'm just consistently see that pattern and I believe that I figured out a better way of a way that fixes a lot of the current issues and pain points and be to be marketing today. There are caused by outdated thinking and outdated rules powd how to do, how to do it the look at. So that's that's really hopeful and I think one of the takeaways from the Fort you've just described as your ability to kind of observe Assystem blistically and identify perhaps what's broken or what's not working as efficiently as possible, and it sounds like that mindset has helped you to kind of frame a point of view on marketing that you've kind of touched on at this point. But the lets let's actually break it down a little bit, if you don't mind, but what is as you view the system as a like be tob revenue organization or go to market team, like. What were some of the broad problemings or things that were broken that you were observing in the context of sales marketing. Yeah, so one that I remember Vivid Leo. It's the first man came by, mind you ask that question. Is that I had two thousand and sixteen. I was I got hired to basically do sales enablement and field marketing life right, so that in a medical device company, like marketing. That's what it means. Yep, build trade show, boost, do like ABM events with customers and then go do big sales meetius and be the subject matter expert. That's what it was. And so I would go with the sales team, I would fly up from Boston to California, from Boston to Idaho, and I would go to the meetings where our rap was meeting with a buyer and I was there to like provide somebdg matter expertise or special for the specialty that we were doing, and I could immediately feel that every person that we were talking to was not interested in buying right now. Okay, and it's and so. And if companies really think credically and they look deeply, what you will find is that your sales team is most been talking to people that do...

...not want to buy right now. And they're spending their time trying to convince somebody about the reasons why to buy, as opposed to having somebody that's already convinced that they want to buy and then a sales person helping them facilitate the transaction. Absolutely, and so that was the the number one thing. And then again people are like, okay, we need to go and hire sand where like our people aren't able to ask it up. We need to go out on the paint pote, we need to do all these things. It's like, no, you need to change the person that your sales up is talking to. If that person needs to be highly educated, as talk with their fears, as most likely been in dark social channels, and talk to other people to do their job and ask whether or not they've had a good experience with your product. Yes, then maybe not. They probably know the price and they might have allocated budget for they've gotten their teeth on board, and then they're talking to your sales rep that's how I modern be to be by and journey actually happens, but that companies still set up the structure where sales should sales talk to people that don't want to buy with the hopes of convincing them to buy, and I just yeah, it's so outdated. Yea. So it sounds like, if I'm hear any correctly, that really, if I'm a modern, be to be SASS working organization, my objective should be oriented or learning, getting as many people that perhaps we don't have like a maybe think of them as like once, like offline, like while they're offline, getting them to a point where they are ready to buy it. So getting someone to the point where they're actually ready to buy, seems to be like maybe the primary objective, though the way. Yeah, though, what the easiest would think about it is when I was I was doing this, I still do it today, is I pretend like there's a buy now button on the website. Yeah, and my goal is to get to want to go through it. And by now, absolutely and most marketers are not. They're trying to get someone to give you their email address they can pass them the sales and call it a day. That's a mindset, because it's really there's there's not a lot of measurement around. It's very much more psychological, which is like I need to get this person to understand any specific things, because I know what they need to know and I've taught them in a way so that now they are open to consider you buying or they want to buy, and that, to me is real marketing hit. And one of...

...my dirty old secrets about this show is that I personally get a lot of I'm able to get a lot of insight that I think benefits me and my company like directly. So hopefully it benefits the audience as well. I think it might. But basically, you know, for in our perspective, we drive a ton of our high intent purchases through paid ads on Google, where people who are searching for a specific terms, who are showing that intent and up coming it to our funnel. If I wanted to create a larger abundance of those types of conversions or those types of interactions, where do I beget? Like, what does the company like ours do to address sort of the challenge that you're describing and increase are sort of high intep gage gets? Yeah, totally. So you need to figure out how to create demand and so when you're in Google or places like that, you are by definition capturing the man because the buyer is already indicated their solution to where and in the market to buy something, which makes that a very small percentage of the available market. Right. So they that the volume of people that you're getting your Google is probably way less than one percent of the entire market, and so you are capturing demand. But you need to go up the chain and figure out what is driving that person to go to Google and search. What are the things that happened before that? Where they get information? What are those triggers? And you got to figure out where those happening, because they don't happen in Google. And then so been what you reverse engineer like the places that we see it happen most often across the scale of fifty five be to be Sass come, because we work with right now, social networks, communities, third party events, direct word of mouth with peers, content platforms like apple, squatify or Youtube. Those set of places are where BTB buyers ha hanging out every day and they consume information to war and they spend time with their peers. They decide what business priorities they want to solve. They actually go and get people on board, they take content, they share it interned with their company to get other people want board, and then they actually go and do it. So all of that facilitation of buying is where the action is in order to do it. But the problem when hy B tob companies don't do it is because you can't track it like Google. Yeah, yeah,...

...okay, that that makes sense and I know that there's a lot of literature that and content that think you've created or an attribution. We could talk about that the moment, kids, because what you just described to sort of this idea of meeting your market where they are, and it sounds like you know, they are interacting social channels there, and let's talk about that for a minute. Like yeah, if if I'm going be to be brand like, ultimately social channels. There's competition for attention, I think to some extent, because I think about my own social media habits and like sure, you know I'm kind of a twitter and linkeding side up of Instagram as a way, but I guess I'll potention for attention everywhere. Yeah, so I guess like to tell me a bit about that, because you know, what is a Bob Brand? SASS brand in particular, do stand out? How do you capture the attention? Where some of the quartets to to be effective at capturing a touch. Yeah, I mean the first I wanted to I'll want to dig into the point of like the attention is competitive everywhere. Right when you build your trade show, both the two thousand seven, Yep, there were other boosts there. You need to figure out how to get people to come to yours. Right, if you're trying to cold call people, other people are getting calls and emails. How are you going to do that? So it's not just social networks, it's clearly everywhere you're beating for attention and so and then what was the question? The question is, what does it be to be brand? Do to stand out? I mean like, yeah, we put your point, you have your your cap, your be for attention everywhere, but in the context of social like the what key, just the key to standing out is having a deep understanding of the people that you're talking to. Most companies missed there, having subject matter expertition, authority that can deliver the message properly and having a point of view that your people care about a you know that they care about it because you you understand them well. And so those three points not there's no MQLS, there's no website visits, there's none. All the metrics that companies use to score the successive marketing pushes marketers to do things that don't involve this piece of strategy that is necessary or your win. And so it's really that simple. Like understand your buyers, to understand where they are, understand the things that they don't understand or the...

...objections they have, what they think about your product relative to competitors in the status quo and an overtime try and change their perception. You have to be yeah, okay. And do you view this sort of approach as an all or nothing type approach? Do you few this complementary, supplementary, to call it more traditional or old school? I don't know how you want to categorize sort of like like the way things old school playbook. Yeah, yeah, I think that. Yeah, it could be totally supplementary. It depends on what your strategy is. Right like. So we don't consider it supplementary because we're playing offense and we realize that if we don't do we don't spend a million dollars building trade ship boots and we don't spend three hundredzero collected mqls and content syndication and we don't spend five hundred thousand dollars running lead jet and paid social and we don't do all the other stuff that beb companies spend their money on that doesn't work that well and we spend all of our record doing things that do work that it creates a huge competitive advantage for us. And so if you are in the advanced tier that you would recognize that it's I wouldn't treat it as supplementary anymore, but for a want of companies you should, because you got to figure out how to make the new stuff work before you abandon the old stuff. Another question that I'm kind of curious about is it in terms of activating in avanted that you're describing it and you and you broke it down earlier into it in part of you for not remembering it is that dark social is the one that set out to me. But jetalistically, three or four things that you mentioned sort of yes session as a part did a word and strategy. Is there a relationship between the effectiveness of that and say, like your Tan like like, for instance, I know community is something that you talk about a lot and and it's like an objective. It's something that you should be striving to start to build, like is the size of a say, impact the community sort of like proportional to like the total, sort of like market size? Because I'm just thinking like yeah, I know if that question makes sense, and if it does, it does. Yeah, it does make sense. I don't think that's the taps. I actually think that it would be much easier to be successful with smaller total adressing markets...

...because you could be way more narrow and more specific and more niche. So, like I think and like, just because there are less total accounts doesn't mean that the size and revenue of the market is larger smaller. Right, like I think there's a thinking that the Internet creates more scale and so when you had more counts than it would work better. But when you also have more scale, oftentimes lower prices, while we're harder, like tighter lines of custom acquisition, you start to get boxed in. And so I don't think that there's an impact on total address. What thing that you can win in both cases. The reason that companies with small total address bools don't win it is because they only think about things like sales and you only you only got two hundred accounts. All you're doing is having two hundred accounts gets sold to every day and that's not at that's not a community. Right. And then I also want to ask you about it's just an interesting time right now because I feel like right now sass companies are getting absolutely murdered and the the our kids, but they're coming up a tail winds of, you know, some pretty aggressive growth, pretty historical growth. So and so if I think there may be some impact that of covid on it, they get clup cloud businesses. But I'm wondering, like, are there companies be to B says, companies out there that are doing it properly? I'm just curious, like who co are some some of the brands that that we should be paying attention to it that maybe doing things that you would actually say yeah, they're actually nailing it. So I don't like, just because I understand how much attention I can bring to other other companies, that I don't like actually calling any of them out. But I will say that if you want to know how to do it, you can definitely observe how my company does it and I believe that, in terms of the execution of our strategy, where the best at it, and in terms of execution of like purely on like a linked in strategy. I believe that where the literally the best in the world. That a company perspective, and how we do that in terms of how we set up our people who are evangelist subject matter of experts, not salespeople trying to get needs, and about all the different things that we do create behaviors at...

...our customer centric that are built for how buyers want to buy today. So I just recommend observing what we do. Let's talk about re fine laps. So you started the business or hell, how long is it bit ATW do? Nineteen, is that right? Yeah, it'll be three, three years in April also. And so again that the genesis of the business is based on some some really strong convictions about the current state of marketing. But tell us the story, I mean walk me through sort of. You know, what was the sort of straw that broke the camel's back that said, you know what, I got to go do something about this, and and and what's it been like over these last three years? Because, as you mentioned, you obviously have a very strong presence online and I imagine there's some it's got to be interesting. So it's kind of observed that occur. Observed that occur the last couple of years. Yeah, yeah, so in two thousand and sixteen to two thousand and eighteen, I what did the company called Papa there and they were serious D company. They eventually ipowed and I basically the only two that company cared about was will give you more budget if you gemistrate that you drive more revenue. So and when I did that, I started doing a lot of the things that you read in a salescoret Zeed bork er hub spot blog. And then you do this activity for six months and you get like thirty Karr and you're like, I'm not gonna be able to grow my budget or scale base this way. It's so fast that they have marketers don't look at that stuff on their own and do the same thing. It's because they just have a budget allocade and they just spend it. And then I started to say, okay, like we need to do things differently. What if I like I want we have a clear value proposition that when explain to our customers, they understand it and they want to buy because it's a clinical story about like the clinical data shows that if you do this, you get this result and it's better for your patients. So it's like, why don't we just tell that to people in a bunch of different ways? We start using pay ungated content, video ads. We did a video podcast. We a video podcast running. In Two thousand and sixteen we were using facebook adge target at exact accounts, ABM you, if people want to call it that. In Two thousand and sixteen, I remember going in to facebook and you could see you have to select one by one the companies and I did that for five hundred accounts to be forever. Yeah, and then you had your entire list of come you're going after. We had content to put things...

...like that, and what I saw as I was doing that is that revenue was growing and I saw all the differences and how attribution was measuring it right, and I was like, okay, so we had a we had a blank slate, not a lot of like there was nobody coming to our website six months ago asking to buy stuff. And what did we do? We started the podcast, he started writing facebook Gadut, bought a little bit of Google ads and now all of a sudden we have more buyers that are coming in actually do something. So we got some signal noise. Something's going on here. We eventually shut off the Google ads and recognized the Google ads. We're not part of that miss and it's like, okay, so it's literally social and podcast driving this for attributions, saying direct traffic and organize. Yeah, world, we have a news coming from. That's the attribution miage that I've been talking about it for a very long time. That scaled up to millions of dollars and that new revenue on a thirty million dollar business at that time significant and that new growth with it for a business that is mostly an expansion revenue company. And that company eventually Ip owed. And then when I looked out in the world, I saw that nobody was doing marketing this way. Yeah, but he was thinking about go to market this way. It was still very much sales focused. What's try and get people that don't want to buy right now into means with our sales team and they'll convince them to buy. And that's just the revolving cycle of what BDB companies do because of how they've been doing it for the past ten years and what marketing meant to them. Now, not thinking about the difference of what buyers need today. I saw those different patterns, which is basically there's a huge opening. It's like, okay, it's like if you had a the secret to something, to doing something better, and nobody else knew about it. It was this is an obvious and obvious way to start a business. I had no idea that it was going to turn out to be this incredible place with the most talented people that I've ever worked with and a great team and a great culture. It's turned out something really, really cool. But the opening of the business opportunity was there. In two thousand and nineteen there was nobody like I knew all the stuff that I knew now, but nobody was knocking on my door to do a podcast. No, customers weren't saying hey, we want...

...to come work with you. Companies weren't saying a come talk to my two hundred person marketing team about how to do marketing. I knew the things, but what I recognize is that people need to know the things that you know in order for them to even consider working with you. Marketing Right, and who would have thought somebody that understands marketing is good at marketing their own business right and then when it was getting started up, I've heard all the same dumb shit that people do right now. It's like, Oh, linkedin would never work to grow your business. Why you're doing that, though, and higher strs, right and Hill and higher sdrds. I don't better work. Oh, you're trying to change how companies do this. This is never going to work, your business will never scale. Yep, go fire a couple freelancers have fun with your lifestyle business. Is what one founder talked down to me at wow and I think over the past three years, through thoughtful execution, we've made me pull movement with the goal of witter. We fundamentally changing how be to be companies, think about go to market and literally, through just straight execution, proving to people that it's like it's crazy. We have more than Fiftyzero people was seeing to our podcast and CMOS that was to the podcast that become customers of ours. Yet they don't think the podcast work. I have a couple of thoughts that that sort of a triggered based on you just describe, and the first one is like you think about the way that you know, the institutionalized practices of business drive some of like the behaviors that you're talking about. So, for instance, like you were talking about the budget that you are allocated in your precas role and how you had to go spend it and make a return, and then you get more budget and you just think about the conversations that marketers need to have internally when they are granted, say, like a half a million dollar budget. Will guess what, next year you got to have that conversation with your CFO saying what the hell did we actually get from it? And that's sort of institutionalizing this sort of reliance on your attribution reporting your traditional ventures, and so I think that's interesting and it definitely sort of like a reinforcing sort of quality of some of the things that you're describing that are so school. And then the other thing that...

...comes to mind. I had a conversation with his name is Shaun Harrying. He's the former VP of marketing at panda doc and, you know, he was talking about some of the experience that he was running that were sort of like not sort of like these traditional go to market plays, and I asked him, like how are you going to have that conversation with your CFO? You know, how are you going to justify, you know, the effort that you've put in, and he had a really, I think, smart perspective on it, which is what is your single most important metric? Okay, and I think about in the context of our business. Well, I want to know, I want people who are submitting for a demo like that to me, is like the most important thing. Does that number go up or go down or stay the same when you are engaging in activities that maybe don't have clear cut sort of attribution or immediately visible Roy and it sounds like to some extent like that's kind of one of the ways that we need think about marketing in the context of the the systems that you're describing, which is what's the most important thing to you. Like forget about all the leading indicate. It's what's The odicator? Yeah, is that? Is that amount? Is that going up or down? I mean it is a I am I hearing you correctly there, or is it? How man I sort of modify it to do? Yeah, I'd Montipplyi it differently. It's the it's it's the amount of revenue that gets created to your website. Like I think about the website like our number one sales up right in an enterprise. Thatch Bach in the sales up still needs to sell the deal, but it comes through the website. If yet basically generated that way. How much revenue gets created through that and is it growing that? It depend on your sales. Likely you to set up a tide window. So we look at what we call hero pipeline for a first period of time, which is basically pipeline that you're in a win a greater than twenty five percent of yourselves a he's already qualified, and it's that number growing as a leading indicator. And then you back into demods being a like. So that would be sure the third, third part. But Demos Canna get a miss leading number on itselves. We look at later one on metrics to basically like anything. It stripped out anything. That's like the garbage that a lot of people do because right you can turn on adds with Din ads and run a bunch of you demo form and get...

...more demos. Doesn't Shit. We're going to convert to me and Jerbai. Sure so. Then it may ask in that context then, I mean what's like the lead time like when you're talking to your clients? What is your expectation or level set at you have with them. Look, we're going to make this investment now. There's going to be a right but period and then you'll see the like. What's the conversation like when you're talking about the lead time in terms of like activation to impact on revenue? Yeah, I mean it's going to take us about six weeks actually just like get everything to build tracking, reporting, media, creative audience targeting strategy. Six weeks getting everything that started, and then from there, like we're looking at within one to two fistal quarters beyond that to have a meet flipped and pipeline, typically within the first ninety days. And we're targeting about at least a twenty to thirty percent quarter over quarter growth rate. Looks would that equate to a more than a hundred percent growth right year over a year? I mean that's incredibly powerful. How could anyone say no to that, Chris? Because they get caught up in the institutionalis thinking about what marketing should do right, so they don't think about it. It's we're getting twenty to thirty percent, while pipeline they're thinking about we just got sixty percent less leads. Yeah, and so there's this. There's a lot of inertia and how people think that don't really understand market or maybe just understand marketing at how it was done in two thousand and twelve, which is really just free sales, and so there's a lot of ingrained thinking that that, even though that value proposition makes one hundred percent clear sense to a b Oh, may not make sense to everybody. Well, this goes back to the original point, though, about you sink systems a little bit different because the systems were giving her set. When you're looking at it holistically, like it may make sense in the context of the CFO but may not make sense the context the revity organization at a whole. Is what you all are doing, like fundamentally, like, do you see it as like an unstoppable forced do you? Do you see, I mean, if you just look at, I guess that the perception and actual growth of both of your brand and what you all are bringing to market, but do you...

...see the shift is being the next thing? Do you think it's going to you have a competitive uphill battle in terms of changing minds and hearts? Like tell me about sort of like what your outlook is on the state of marketing as you sort of see some of the additional impact that you're having on the businesses that you're working was, I think, unstoppable force is a good way to describe it. I think that there's a clear issue in any be to be company that uses a salesperson to sell deals and how they think about the entire go to market for that motion is busted and they so they've been. They used to do just the demand water ball from serious decisions and they did that and they're like, oh, this doesn't work anymore. Now let's go to ABM. And ABM is nothing more than doing the same shit with intent data instead of emptyl's and to announce set up lead, just same thing, just like your sales tea and calling people that don't want to buy, trying to get me for people that don't want to buy. So that it was like take one thing that doesn't work and replacing with something else doesn't work. And so it's clear that whole system is is busted. People are looking at product led as a way to sort of combat and the terrible by experiences that happen enter price stass because there they just start. So internal week focused in sales centric. So we move to product led. But then when you work with product led companies, you see there's not all gravy in the product led side. They're very good at getting people to sign up. They might be very good at getting nine dollar a month customers, but then they want to go up and they want to go at a thousand user enterprise customer, and that doesn't really happen touch with US automatically. And so in both of those instances there's always going to be an enterprise sales motion and these instances and that is the place where we're going. That's where we solve. And so we're building a new go to market motion that will replace the serious as the man water ball that be tob companies will adopt that scale. I' just like that. Thousands of companies will adopt this over the next three to five years. Well, look, I'm like super, super intrigued and interested in myself. I think you know where we've dipped our tone to the water in terms of...

...creating content. I think we probably got ways to go in terms of like really nailing it, terms of putting the things that our market cares about, and I think that's certainly something that I'm interested in exploring further. But I see it, I understand it we're describing. I also understand sort of the old way and I think it's it's exciting to kind of like to just kind of project out, you know what type of impact this might have. And, and this goes back to sort of the conversation I have with your colleague Todd, it's just, you know, for us, in this very narrow thing that we're doing it now, it's just consistencies key. It's not necessarily a build it, they will come. It's a create, an engage type approach and and we're excited and Begre to kind of pursue that. But this is when there are yeah, I whish people would think about it like are you know what I mean, like you got you make something, you put it out, you get feedback and then you go back and make something else. When I say that, people get so caught up and like Oh, like this didn't work as well or other it. So it becomes very externally focus and really be internal driven of like what am I trying to do and how do I how do I put something out that's better tomorrow than today? So, yeah, I just feel people should simplify. But let me ask you one more question here, because I think this is really important. How would you empower somebody in a more organization today to make the pitch internally to adopt some of the views that that you're espousing in terms of be tob assassin marketing? Like what's the approach, because I think internal settling on like pivoting an approach is one of the ways I think that impact it can happen. I'm just wondering, did you think about that at all, like how are you powering marketers who might be able to whether it's adopt your approach or what would you drevet a you like, what's the conversation that you're guiding them or hoping that they'll have internal? Yeah, I mean we we do is that scale through our content every day, right. So we have power people that want, that believe in this stuff to use content that's available, to share it in internal channels, which happens at scale, to other people in the organization, for them to understand certain thing which then may have changed their perception...

...about how to do certain things. So that's how we do it. I'll admit that, like the reason that I started my company was because no be to be company that I could interview for would do marketing the way that I wanted to do it. So you are at the moment in a small pool of companies that will actually make these changes, and so I found it's going to be a quite an upbel battle as a marketing leader trying to get people that don't want to change it, don't recognize as a problem, that don't understand buyers that well, to fundamentally change this perspective, because it's it's just very it's very counterintuitive, and so my recommendation always is to instead of trying to convince people that don't want to be convinced by people that are alread aligned with what you want to do and maybe that it requires trying to do somewhere new to work. Yeah, I mean it's a great point because if you just think about the way with the world has changed so much in the less twenty years, I mean you and me at I don't exactly how old you are, but we've been on the forefront. I mean I was one with the JAT. I was one of the first people to have an IPHONE, right. I never like the pre Internet days, and then get the Internet and ultimately we will eventually be in those positions, right, who are going to be making bay decisions, who are going to be able to allocate the budgets and of ask for it, and so it also may us be, like, you know, still matter. It's happening. To the point, yeah, it's happening. I don't what the status but, quote unquote, millennials or a huge part of the actual decision makers and be to be today, and that will continue to grow. It's not it's not going backwards. You know what I'm saying. So as that continues to grow, they will be a shift. And how that, how that all happens it which is excited, iriting right. Like, I think there's changes. I've literally been talked about this stuff for like seven years in the change that change for the past seven years is has been meaningful, but really slow compared to what it should be like. It's crazy to think that that the situation of covid was a major accelert to this process. If that had not happened, how stuck be to became? I may still would be today. Yeah, so there's just like crazy things to think about, but there's a big opportunity here, and I think that it's one of the most empowering things for marketers and salespeople...

...today to just acknowledge the difference of what things work and then, if you can just lean into the differences rather than resisting them, you just create a huge advantage for yourself. Totally. I gotta let you know I'm super impressed by your passionate about this. I think you're totally a pioneer in, frankly, an ideology and marketing that clearly has intact as well. So really, really impressed by you and what you've built and and sort of the message that you're bringing to market. If our audience wants to learn more about you and your fine labs, they're probably already are familiar with you, but work. Where could they find it? Yeah, if you'd like to learn more, I post daily content on Linkedin. You can buy me at Chris Walker, and also on our podcast. The stated Demandin podcast we post three episodes a week of D expertise content and demand end go to market, advertising content, marketing, etc. And so if you are interested in that, would encourage you to check that out on apple or s quotify. Awesome. Chris will again our audience. Encourage you to check that out because there's a lot of awesome, I think, really really just interesting and meaningful content that's coming in through that channel. Chris, really appreciate you take its time out of your day to join us on growth barketing capter. That, bobby, this was a blabs. That's for having a man. Thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, would love it if you'd give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to give a little more inspiration for their next campaign. If you want to learn more about the company behind the show, had to open sensecom. That's open. Se En Secom. Will catch you on the next episode.

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