Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 32 · 7 months ago

Building a Rock-Solid Marketing Foundation With Sprinklr’s Jared Gardner

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Everyone loves a good marketing campaign. We see a huge spike, loads of success, and then we take the learnings to ramp up the next campaign. But as VP of Digital Marketing at Sprinklr, Jared Gardner takes a different tack with his team. By focusing on the foundational building blocks and not just quick wins, Jared knows the team will make progress up and to the right with greater consistency over time and fewer dips in success. He breaks down what blocks he’s putting in place these days on the latest episode. Dig in!

Welcome to growth marketing camp, where we sit down with our favorite marketers to demistify growth and give you the insights to help turn your next campaign into a major success. Let's get into it, all right, welcome to another episode of Growth Marketing Camp. Really excited to be joined by Jared Gardner, whose story will get to in a second. But it starts with a history in Utah. Some we're one of our past guest, Pete Larkin, including schooling at the University of Utah, who happen to be bitter rivals of mine and Pete's Alma matter. But we won't hold it against the jared. Welcome to the show and thanks for having a racket. It's good to be here and it took us a few tries to get this on the books and glad we made it happen. And Yeah, I'm a big youth fans up go you' so I'll be going to the game tomorrow, our first our kind of pact volve opener. So, yeah, it's kind of a crazy scene out in Utah. Yeah, it's a really strong economy, growing fast and really hard to hire out here, to be honest. But it's been fun to you know, I kind of came up in the texting here at qual tricks, which it's probably the Darling of Utah Tac, and from there, you know, I kind of joke that there's a qualdrix mafia that has extended out and so down with the head at least folks that we worked with together on that team. Four of them are heads of marketing somewhere and another tech company here that most of them are, you billy, other billionaire companies. It's kind of crazy to see the kind of one generation of tech success can read many generations, you know, like those are five other Unicorns that have happened built on built by teams that were working at Qua trikes, you know, six, seven years ago, which is it's cool to see in the scene that is and I was actually around that scene at that time. I was at inside Salescom and there's kind of a similar mafia of like hey, if you were at is is DC, you probably went on to one of these other companies. Many of them went to qual tricks another similar places, and it was excited to see Utah just created this, this opportunity. That's pretty unique and I think there's a few other cities like it. But you to has definitely been growing really, really quickly, or whether the Salt Lake Valley has been growing really quickly as it relates to tech. I love the name the silicon slopes because I think it fits really it's really appropriate for the way that you all are growing out there. Is that what's kept you there? Is that just family or you've just been around there because you love the area? Yeah, you know, grew up here, spent a little bit of time with San Diego, so you'll see this andy ago on the Salt Lake. That's not like arn't here. Love San Diego. Yeah, every day I'm like, yeah, should I have left there? But I think being any I work for a Tech Company in New York now and Befrit of that was in La and and you know, you kind of don't know where the opportunities lie. But I think for I mean it's family, it's the outdoors here in Utah's incredible. And then also I know that like for my skill set, this is kind of an be tob direct sales capital right out between all the bb tech companies out here. You know, obviously not going to arrive all silicon slopes or silicon valley anytime soon. But I think there's a lot...

...more diversity of tech company and Silicon Valley with Buc Tech Companies, where Utah's very, very focused on bb tech companies, and so there's a lot inside cells teams here and somebody who does the demand a generation. I feel like I have plenty of opportunities to work and I live pretty close to the silk and slopes, and so I think that's what's keeping me here. That and ski resorts. Hey, that's good. That's a good excuse. Now you've got a long history of Seo and cm expertise and you eventually moved into leadership roles that, like you mentioned qual tricks, service Titan, one of my favorite companies out there, and now sprinkler, where you're the VP of digital marketing. Now sprinklers of publicly traded company as of just recently. You came on board around that time. You've been around for about six months now. Yeah, it's going to be an exciting transition for the whole team there. Yeah, yeah, it has, and so I do hope this is my rollover IPO, because I was at qual trick. So we got bought by sap a couple days before. We're supposed to IPO. You know, we did all the work to APO and then got fought and then I was at coal checks when they announced a SAPN now, so they're going to spin out call tricks again. So I is my second shot at it and opportunity rose and I ended up happy, ended up taking it, and so I wasn't there, but I feel like I preped for two IPOs and never got to get got mine. So literally three days after I joined sprinkler they announced the they filed their us want and so that was I was exciting. You know, one of the first meetings that I was in coming out of training was like time to build an invest relationship, relations website, you know, and so kind of going through that was it's a really cool experience. You know. I hope all my other friends and tech get it to get to experience that some day. There's a lot of work. I don't I want to say I want to do it again, just because the work that leads up to that day was was quite a bit, but and it was. It was really rewarding and I'm glad I did it. Yeah, I like the person of the Rollover IPO that it seems like you've earned it. That's the mixed total sense. Yeah, I noticed on in particular on the announcement on your website about the IPO. You guys provide unified customer experience software and solutions, and I really like the way that was phrase a new world of business has led to point solution, chaos, and is that one of the main stances that you will take it, Sprinkler's that the approach is like there's there's too many things out there vying for the same you know, solving the same problem but in different, fractured ways. Yeah, right, I smile here and you say that because it means that we did our home page positioning right, and we know we've spent a lot of time on that getting it right. But that, like what you explained, is exactly the problem that we're trying to solve. So I got a quote, like a staff from a research firm, that the average marketing department has like night and enterprise, and we're really focused on large on the enterprises. Right now has s four different marketing tools. And so can you if you can imagine ninety four different logins and ninety four different data integrations and ninety four and you know, how many of those tools are you paying for that you're not using and kind of all of that, and so what we're trying to help companies do is standardize that...

...on a unified platform. And you know, I think one big part of that, which I'd say that the markets not quite there yet. There's everybody wants to do it, but nobody's doing it yet. It is really unifying the care side of the House with the marketing side of the House. And so that's where care is typically like a cost center and not in the operational department. Marketing, at least in a good company, is a growth in cost of revenue center, right, and so you typically, and a lot of places you've had those two things divided. And with today's modern channels like twitter direct messages are probably traditionally managed by your marketing team. But if you're an airline, how many twitter direct messages do you have? They're actually a care case study where they should have been. They in Trident and old worlds they would have been calling a care number or doing live chat, right, and so the lines between what is care and what is marketing is really blurred, and so by US trying to unify that to make sure that you can go from marketing to care. And and, by the way, if you do care, well, hopefully that turns back into marketing and cells. Right. That's like, Oh, you have an issue with this, the problem is your hardware. Here's the hardware you should get, you know, andefully we can turn that cost center into a revenue center as well. And just the kind of the stack is super fragmented for most companies. Like there's lot of you sy contact center providers that are running the care side and then there's, you know, ninety four different marketing tools on the other side, and so none of those things typically talk together, and so if we can fix that, we think that will help make the experiences that you have with companies a better place. It's a bold mission and people have been supporting this and some of the most incredible brands in the world have been behind you on this and working with you on this. It's really exciting to see. I noticed one thing about the way you describe it, and I imagine this is intentional. You callnic care, not support, not success, like the way that you think about the way the companies interact with their customers. Use the phrase care. Is that intentional? Yeah, that's pretty intentional, I ass you know. We've named our products around it because there's different let's support is something you have to do, a care of, something you want to do. I think if I think about it as a marketer and how you position that, like I care about something and so that's why I'm doing something, where it says like I'm forced to support a lot of things that I don't care about. Right. So I think that's yeah, that was definitely intentional and, you know, hopefully we can kind of change the way that companies think about that. Yeah, it's great. It also gives you a different experience. You can feel it on the other end, on the receiving and you can tell the difference between care and support. So I appreciate that you brought that out now. Before a final question before we jump into can know what you're up to now and where you guys are focused on, how you're building. Do you ever Miss Getting your hands in the guts of stuff like Seo or like website optimization? I know you think about that stuff, I'm sure incessantly, but you're in meetings all day, you've got a big team, you're growing. There's demands. Ever, just want to tinker with stuff.

I'm glad you asked. I feel like I see that that question for you, but for all the listeners, I done it. So I was having this said a one to one with my head of marketing out yesterday, which is like I actually deal with like anxiety by doing stuff. So like I'm a like anti procrastinate or whatever. I'm anxious, I have to go do stuff, and so every once are a while, actually pretty often, I'll just be sick of meetings. I am quite a few meetings and I was just like I just got to go fix something, I got to do some marketing. And you know, my team probably doesn't love it when I jump in I'm like, Hey, I fix that, I set this redirect for it, or I fix this title tag. Hey, I noticed this bad data and sells for so I fixed it. I team probably doesn't love it, but I think I've always been a big proponent and I try to like practice what I teach or preach here is, if it all possible, you should be competent in the areas that you'd manage. So you know, I manageing it web engineering team. I'm never gonna be able to do their jobs. For him and I realize that, but I at least like to understand the stack and understand how things work together and I'll jump in the cmus and do stuff. And so, like I nothing's forcing any marketer to not be hands on. You know, it's either fear or willingness. Right, if you're not willing to and so I love you. My Head of performance marketing is light years ahead of me and like on the media side of things, and I learned stuff from them all the time and you know everyonece in a while I'll find something of like hey, DOE's notice this Little Dana Point and I think my team hates that because I got why is he in here? What is he doing? It's like that was kind of a joke in the one to one if I had to add a marketing up yesterday is like how do you have time for this? Like how are you finding all these broken things? And now there's kind of a joke that like could you like all bench? I'll find it some some point. So like gotta stay one step ahead of me. But you know, to your to your question directly, yeah, I missed doing it more, but I think there's nothing keeping you from being hands on, no matter where you're on the organization. I like the point that there's nothing stopping you. Like nobody said your job is to lead and never touch anything. I think as long as you communicate to your team while you're doing it and that it's not like a hey, like looking over your shoulder constantly, always looking for mistakes, more like I love this stuff, this is what I eat, sleep and breathe, like I'm going to get my hands dirty occasionally and I just want to be helpful. I think it's a nice way to approach it. Yeah, yeah, I like to. I think one of the areas that I to avoid pissing off my leaders and one of the areas that I try to spend a little more time on that is actually kind of skip level a little bit. So when there's a more a more junior person on the team who wants to learn something about Seo, actually taking that as a time of like two for one, like I get I jump in and like help, Oh, like, Oh yeah, do it this way or like add this to this page, and they get to learn a little bit where, hopefully that's helping, you know, their manager, as opposed to just me. It feel like I'm micromanaging, you know, but there's two sides that point yet to be really careful as a leader, but if you can do it in a way that you provide leverage of like, Hey, I fix this, because I know you're busy and Nice. It would have taken me just as long to explain it to...

...you. And then how you go do it. And they want to distract you from the other thing, you know. So I think maybe my team might not always agree, but I always hope that's how they feel. Good, good, I won't ask them the same question then that's good. Yeah, exactly what way? We'll have to do a team survey after this? That's right, that's right. Well, thinking about the the way that we typically interview guests on this shows, we ask him about a particular campaign because we're preparing for this interview you mentioned. There's not the same mentality of like start, stop, here's a campaign, here's what we got out of it, and let's go build the new one from scratch, learning from the past one. How do you approach this stuff, especially as you're coming into a new role? Yeah, so I think it's partially because of where I've come from as far as like they focus areas in my career and then it's partially you know, we're sprinklers out as well, and so where I've come from is like I started in organic search and ever during content is like one of your favorite words when you're teaching organic search that to customers. And so the idea of published ones get traffic forever was something that, you know, if that's one of the values that was compounding, like one post will get you this much traffic, to post will get you that much traffic in your traffic keeps going up is you keep creating content and pages and dealing optimizations. And I think the foundation of most dimandage and or digital marketing departments that are performance minded. You know if you have a an opportunity or pipeline goal you're trying to hit. If you're any commerce you have a revenue goal that you're trying to hit or transaction call. You know you're looking at what spend and activities are driving your upcomes and it's very important to make sure that it's not always one in, one out, so a dollar and it all out, dollar in, dollar out. That's not a sustainable model from a cost standpoint or from a people standpoint and so I've always focused on like what's ever green. You know, to me organic search is the easiest example, paid search as well, right, if you if you really dial in your paid search, and there you know there's maintenance to all of these things, but hopefully the work that you did yesterday, I'm paid search is still there and when you add more keywords and campaigns, you're gaining there and you're kind of always going up into the right where a campaign graph kind of looks like this, where you get these spikes. And in a perfect world it's a bit mix of both, where you're going up with spikes and you're going up along the way, and so I always focus on that first. And maybe that might be because of been around the block enough to see that your best campaign might try five percent of the total by like your organic search programs driving like thirty percent of your outcome, your paid search program driving thirty percent outcome, and so invest in that. Always on stuff and don't get too distracted by the campaigns. And I think mark part of that too might just be my skill. So I like I'm not the type of person who's like, let me think of the perfect tagline and asset and then we'll go activate in all the channels. You know, we support the teams that do that as kind of the channel owners, like the teams within sprinkler and other companies that I've been at.

I typically say like, don't buggling with campaigns until I've set up this stuff or at least, you know, be able to support both. So that's kind of my thought on it. And you know, maybe that's maybe I'm biased because I was an seo for so long, or maybe, you know, it's because I've seen that mottel be successful or eighty ninety percent of your outcomes are driven by evergreen things. Now everybody wants predictability of revenue and Growth and opportunity. Certainly that's like that's the gold standard. We'd love to get there. At every company, no matter where you go, they want that predictability. They want to know what's coming in and marketing's a big part of that. So does this in some way maybe help you with the predictability of kind of pipeline and like you're building something that's consistently moving up into the right because what I've seen, and I'll let you answer the question, I promise, but what I've seen is those spikes get really exciting and everybody's like, Oh, this is the new normal for us, like we're now at elevated to this level, and it's like well, yeah, only until the campaign dies down. Yeah, I totally agree with the risk part, or like so predictability to me as the inverse of risk. I can predictably say that, like, the amount of people that search for customer experience management software is probably not going to differ this much from the next month. So if we can get the ranking or the keyword that for up outperforms the high quality score or whatever it is, that's pretty predictable, like, because now we're looking at macground trans of search volume changes, as opposed to a campaign where one I like, I really have to fund a campaign because there's interruption marketing and so it's really got any and you know that's off interruption marketing and paid social and all that's obviously a part of our strategy in anyways, but it's got to be you know, we got a hit and you know there's how we've all seen campaigns to flop right, like I'd say, yeah, half of the campaigns that I've ever run have been average twenty five percent I've been maybe thirty percent, I've been below average, and you get that last twenty percent. That's above a ridge, and so you know that's there's risks there. And so maybe it's because I'm risk averse that I like the Evergreen motion. or I'd like to take a campaign that's worked, put a fresh count of paint on it, iterate it, improve it, tweak it and kind of keep running with what we've built and kind of that agile iteration, as opposed to like right, here's the bill materials, this is going to last for sixty days and then we're on to the next one, and feel like you're always just like feeding this beast, like there's always more of a content demand and you're going to abouble the feed it from a creative and content production and so if the Halflife of your content is short, you're always going to be in a deficit. Yeah, it's a good point. I know that. You know we can predict that. If you are running campaigns that are there are some of them are going to hit. There's going to be those hills. But what I love about your strategy to is when there's a valley, if somehow the metrics drop you know something has happened. Maybe there's a change in the mark and maybe there's a new announced and there's a new competitor, somebody else is buying the keyword. Like you can have a little bit closer ear to the ground on what's really happening, because you've got this consistency...

...and when you see the metrics drop out from under you, it's like, Whoa, something happened here. Yeah, we had David staffern, who used to be a lucid chart and now he's at Workona, and he was talking about this, like checking the metrics every day. I think you learned this from Dave grow over, a lucid chart, but it was like just check the dashboards, like look and see what's happening every morning. Whoa, something happened here. In fact, for David it led to an incredible campaign where they're able to capture a lot of demand because of a market change, but incurs. Have you seen that in the past? Like, you know, seen the hills. Is Great, but like are you? Are you paying attention those valleys, because you have that consistency? Oh, yeah, absolutely, like, at least in my line of work, which is that demand. Yet I'm looking at how many opportunities did we set today as a team? Really did we do as a week? How many did we did as a month? And then, if I I want to corm with the caute us a dividing that by twelve. I'm am am, I on pace. And so I yeah, definite really look at all the time and one of the first things that will do is opportunities by week and then drill down to like which campaigns, hmm, created them. Yeah, and so like look at giving that. Most of the time it's the same campaigns every week, like eighty percent. Every once in a while, you know. So like one that you know, this is a macro industry positioning, but like we had a really strong or we were announced the leader in the forester way for social suites and obviously, you know, there was some announcements around that and you know, two weeks later started to see started started to see volume for that. And so that's one where there was a campaign that would run around that. That was because of you know, I would call I caught real company Shit right like. That was it wasn't like something we made up. It wasn't like all of a sudden, you know, you need to care about this thing that we made up. That was US amplifying real company Shit, something that our companied really done. So as much as possible I like to amplify that real company Shit, whether that's, you know, acquisitions or a like handalyst relations type things. Amplify those with the tactics that we have, such as paid media, such as like visibility on the website, and we've seen, you know, I've seen success over that and multiple roles of that kind of stuff. That makes perfect sense. Now, zooming out from the work you're doing today, because you held many roles, you've been in the guts of a you've been in leadership, are you seeing anything that we all should be aware of or generally in the market that marketers need to stop doing or start doing? Like, is there one of those things you're like, oh, I hate it when I see X or man, I wish people just did why more often? Yeah, I don't know that I have a one big one. I think the like to that I always see is with copy being like being clever or polished as opposed to clear. So, you know, just be short and direct, like if you're going to write a three word headline, rite a three word headline, you know, if you can get that point acrossed. And so I think that's one of the things that, as I've gotten more into direct response style advertising, where you...

...get kind of one shot at getting somebody's attention, I've been really, you know, kind of doing that like two second, five second page test of like looking at a page, setting a timer for two seconds and then making the page go black and be like all right, what did I get from that page? You know, and the answer to that is always like shorter, tighter punch of your copy and like it, get rid of as many fluff words as you can, basically. So I think that's why. And then too, as like an advertiser, and even on hearn channels, especially like your website and email, your days St Act is going to power your ability to personalize at skip, like, at scale and accurately and in an interesting ways. And I think a lot of people don't invest in making sure that all their systems have all the data that it needs. And I mean it kind of goes back to that point solution chaos thing, like if you're AB testing platform doesn't have crm data in it and you can't tell if somebody's like in a customer or not, or an an opportunity or not, you're not going to your website experience is going to be bland, and so generally, you know, the same thing can be said about advertising, like or is your advertising to people who have an open opportunity different than the people who have never are not here, crm and and kind of every stage in between, and so that data unification becomes a competitive advantage. And so like, I think that the ability to use personalized data and really tight targeting, targeting as well as personalization, is a competitive advantage for most companies and it's hard and most people don't do it right. So they're not using customer data platform, they're not using full funnel analytics, and so it's, you know, it's more of playing the funnel game, like we're just going to stuff more things into the funnel and the volume went through the funnel is our answered more pipeline as opposed to getting better at every stage. So for marketers who you know, if you ask the question, do you pump back out like opportunities back into Google, as the people like, no, that's hard, like, okay, cool, because I'm doing it, you know, and that's my competitive advantage. It is the fact that you read, you do the hard things with moving data so that you can do good audience and targeting and personalization. I'm glad you brought that up because I really I love your point in the exercise that you mentioned about the copy. But the way I've always talked about the formula for successful whether it sales are marketing interactions, it's target, message, channel and timing. And if you don't have the target right, I don't care how good your copy is. Yeah, you could be as choppy and clever or, you know, clear and concise. And if you've put a customer into a final for acquisition, like, what are you doing? You're missing out on something huge here. You're doing the wrong activities to generate in earn conversation. So I love that you brought that up because I think that is so essential. But there's also that, like you a as a market you have to think about the day to you also have to think about the way you message things. You have to talk to human yeah, you have to be relevant and clear and that's so important that we combine those two things. I appreciate you bring that up. Yeah, I think...

...so. Like add onto that to the hardest part about personalization. So it's like cool, you got the data, you can make these different audiences. Like now you need four versions, I add instead, yeah, version of that ad, which means you gotta go for good versions of that Ad. And scaling that up, I think is one of the biggest challenges that faces marketers is every time it's cool, now we can do personalization, but what are you going to say different? Now you got to do six different versions of this, and that segmentation is like it's so taxing on a marketing organization to do six different versions of a similar campaign. That's always you know, when you get into the enterprise, at some points already's like well, we should say then our emails to people in automotive should be different than healthcare. Like yeah, they probably should, but now we gotta like now you gotta go. Everything becomes exponentially more work. That's where I at scale things start to get a lot harder of like Oh, you gotta find that one bit message that works for everybody, and then the next version of that is probably a segmented thing to your point. So like, if you don't have the message right, it doesn't matter if you can segment, you know, so those that audience segmentation and the copy and message have to go hand in hand, because if you have the segmentation without the content to send to that audience, it doesn't matter. Yeah, I'm fully on board with your approach to that. Now, part of how you skill it up is with human effort, like there's got to be someone writing the compens gover somebody managing the data Stackna, you guys have grown tremendously just since you've come on board. Do you bend walking me through just a little bit of the history, the progression there of how you've grown the team since you came on? Yeah, I think you know, I had the blessing of kind of having a blank slate when it came on. was like, okay, we know, we know we ought to do demand on a level that we hadn't done recently, and so, you know, what do you need? And so I kind of got started with a blank or chart, which was really cool. And it's interesting too to think about working for a global company, of how you going to slice that. You know you can segment, even segmenting your teams. That's the same problem that we talked about our sementy your customers, right, is like do you want a team focused on different products? Do you want to seem different pocused on different geographies? And so for me I think it was it was first get get that subject matter expertise into like every channel or tactic that we think has some scale to it. So, yeah, email, email, Seo, paid, searge may be testing. You know, like get subject matter expertise so that we have somebody who can tell you it's possible, it's not possible, and hopefully, you know, a company of our scale has a bag of tricks that comes with them, right. That's why you hire for experience. It's like you want that bag of tricks, of things that they know, of work and past rolls, and so that was that was really my first focus. was, like let's make sure that we have the subject matter expertise to run all these channels that a world class level and if we get this right subject matter expertise, they'll learn our products, lear or market or audience and be able to fine tune that. And I think that's where we involved over the last six months or so. It...

...is like stand things up with our best gas and now like, oh, that didn't work. Like we thought it would. But if we change this now, it works things like that. So, you know, we've got a scaled up to about twenty people or so in my org and right now really focused on subject matter expertise and you know, we'll heading into planning Z in for next year and that will probably be where we have to start to determine like do we verticalize around products? We verticalized around industry. It through verticalize around geographies. But first let's, you know, let's build it a global level. Let's make sure our platform, their system, their data of work and all of the stuff that should be on it's on, you know, all that everything stuff. And what what's crazy is there's never, I can't say never, have been around that long, but there hasn't been recent history been this big of a need for flexibility, like the idea that a subject matter expert knows a channel or a tactic or strategy well enough that they can adapt to because the bag of tricks and what worked is the starting point for what's going to work next, especially when everything's going digital, especially when everything is changing and there's like a lot of fluctuation and we don't know when events come back in full force. These other things. It's like just being good or even great, is half of the battle. Now it's been great at adapting those skills to I imagine you were looking for that, because this is in the midst of, you know, post pandemic world. You're looking for those skills as well. Right. Yeah, I think so. And like also the state that we're in with startups, venture capital and stass right now. It's like everybody's got a huge our chest right now, right, and like the amount of billion dollar companies on this planet it's insane. And so there's a bunch of startups going after the same target audiences that we are. Like between the marketing side and the carroside, those titles are getting bombarded with the man jen from us and from every company right, like there's a lot of things that people want to sell to these this same people. And so, like to your point, like what maybe even two years ago, three years ago, would a band above average is just average now. And, like us, trying to find that edges. It's really tough when you're when you're trying to set up a foundation and find the edge to become world class. We've had to have that conversation a lot as like what's Bewe? WHAT'S BETO? Because there's, you know, so many from other teams will come in it's like it'd be really cool if we could do this, and like yeah, that would be really cool, but it's really hard just to do this part. Let's get care first and then go there, and I think that that compromises the market. Always hurts when you're like when you see another company do something really cool and you're like, I know how they did it. I just said haven't. We haven't had the time to do it and we haven't the top priority list. So, yeah, I think that's it. What you said like really rings true right now. And because of that too, like, you know, going back to the state of startups right now and Sass in general, like hiring people's extremely hard because of that, and so people are coming in with being asked to do something that maybe in a previous world that they would have had a little more experience doing.

Yeah, I can tell that's critical now. That kind of SEGUES, it's nicely to one of my final questions, which is, if you had double the staff, the budget or the time, which would you choose and what would you do with that time. I would take the time. Yeah, well, actually, I really take that back. Is that time just for me or time for turf for the whole team? Yeah, let's say from Marketing Department you could double your staff budget or time by far time. That's a no brainer to me. You know, if, of on the budget side, if you have a strong relationship with your finance team and you know your numbers and you know your cat payback, you shouldn't be budget limited in most or if you're in a growth company, you know, if you can prove that what you're doing works, and in my line of work, de man generation, you should be able to prove what you're doing works and so budget shouldn't be too big of an issue. Obviously it's something. It's conversations and negotiations and all that. Staff is hard actually, and I think I've staff and time or two different sides of the same coin, right, because you like you need more man hours to do things and I'd rather get more man hours from the team that I have because they have the experience and knows what need to be done. One of the things that is always a challenge is, like if you're on a high product priority project and you know, somebody else in the companies like hey, can you redesign this part of the website by this day? And you're like now, like we can. What if I give you three people from like the product engineering or come help? And you're like it's going to take me three days to teach them what they need to do. Yeah, and in that three days my team probably could have done you know. And so you have that. Like that's contact switching. Cost is super high the contact switching training and ramp up. So that's why I would choose more time for the people that I have. Like I really believe in the team that I have now and they're all doing great work. They just don't have enough time to do everything that we want to do. That's partially because we're always trying to think of like the next innovation, and so are to do list gets longer. We put more things on than we take off. So poritization is key, but more time would, I would, easily be my answer there. Yeah, I love the confidence you have with that answer too, because I've had guests on who like all three sound good right. We'd love that opportunity to pull on all those levers. I appreciate your comment specifically about being a good steward though, over the finances that you've been granted. Like you have to have some accountability there. I think it's not always as easy, like you're talking about the man Jin in particular. It can be more difficult on brand or another elements of the business can be harder, but I think just having that that like look, I have to be able to explain why this is a thing that's going to take us further, and I think that's a really good mentality to take with it, and that's that's going to unlock some of the purse strings there a little bit. Yeah, totally, and the best thing that you can do is when you start working with the finance business partner, even your boss is like have your financial model, like dollars and dollars out and just well, Lin and really quickly I like, okay, this is where I suggest we're comfortable, at this level of GAC payback or this Roi, this row s.

If hear any commerce, you know, this is where I think we should be comfortable and then negotiate with your mother's your boss or finance team, whatever it is, a they're like m actually, you know, when you taking the rose marked in and all that, it's probably more like this. You know. Okay, we agree, this is the number. As long as I'm under this number, I'm going to keep asking for more money. You know, eventually that will go so that only go so far and you'll hit a real like okay, that's the most money that you can have, but if you have I think a good finance team is just as interested in growth as you know what like, I think byance folks get a bad rap for being just trying to save money all the time. But yeah, there's a saying that revenue hides all problems, and so I think that the o they if you can say give me a dollar and I'll give you two dollars back, a smart finance person is going to make that investment all the time, and so I've always really invaluate my relationship with finance business partners. I appreciate that approach. Now we appreciate you having, you know, time set aside for us to come on the show. I have loved getting a chance to learn more about your experience and what you're doing a sprinkler. Are there any other marketers out there that you've learned from in particular, maybe even brands that we should be following, people we should be aware of that we can learn from as well. Yeah, I think they've been really, really lucky to have some mentors in my career that like are the the famous marketers, like they're not the day gare hearts, you know, they're not that like famous marketers that or, if you know, have have personal brands, but they've been the type of people that every time you're around I'm you learn something and they've always been like willing to help me to if you're like hey, you know, that's not part of my job description, but that's really interesting and I think come over here it's they always spend some time with that. So, you know, I had a great mentor call Drake's named Rick Lawn. He runs the marketing for divvy now. You know. He is one of the best mentors I've ever had. And then, back in the agency world, John Ferris, who's the president of the agency that I worked for now, it was kind of the same way, and so I've always been super grateful for those guys. They're still mentors for me today, and so I think the mentor relationship is a lot better that the relationship that you can have with like following famous people right like you can follow people. The famous marketers are personal brands and nothing against them and I think their contents good, but not being able to ask follow up questions and real high and not be a love like man. I'm really struggling with this problem. What would you do? Goes a long way, so I'd say get a mentor over, you know, following famous marketers. I like that. That's good advice. We've heard past guests talk about mentorship and how they use some of that following mix with some of my personal approach. I appreciate that look. Jared, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for making time. We hope you enjoy the rest of your weekend and some exciting things to come. There the sprinkler team as thank you so much. Tracks. Thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you would give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking...

...to get a little more inspiration for their next campaign. If you want to learn more about the company behind the show, had to open sensecom. That's open sky and skycom will catch you on the next episode.

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