Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 61 · 4 months ago

Deep Dive Into Competitive Intelligence with ClickUp’s Andy McCotter-Bicknell

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this week’s episode of Growth Marketing Camp, we explore what it means to be productive in today's day and age with Click Up’s Head of Competitive Intelligence, Andy McCotter-Bicknell.

Andy breaks down the importance of having a strong competitive intelligence department at your company, the tech stack he uses, and how to leverage it against your main competitors. He shares the story of why he decided to jump into the world of competitive intelligence at ClickUp and how he’s been able to build this program out from scratch.

Check it out!

Welcome to growth marketing camp, podcast powered by open sense, where we sit down with leaders and founders from diverse backgrounds in marketing, tech and beyond to explore what it takes to build a leading brand that's shaving the world of B Two B let's get into it. Hey, y'all, this is jazz spinning, Co host of growth marketing camp. Welcome to another exciting episode where I'm happy to welcome Andy mccatter Bicknell, who is currently the head of competitive intelligence at Click up, host a healthy competition podcast and the proud owner of the competitive playbook, which you guys will learn all about today, if you don't know already. Andy, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks so much for the warm introduction and thanks for having me Nice. I'm glad to have you so one before we kick off the show, why don't you tell me where you're at right now, where you based? So right now I'm so location. I'm in Vancouver, Washington, and where my career? Wise, I'm working at click up right now. Oh, okay, I got very excited for a second when you said Vancouver. I'm in vague over British Columbia. I know. Yeah, so it's one of those funny things where typically, when I'm telling people where I live, I usually just opt for saying Portland, Oregon, because we're really just fifteen minutes north of Portland. And usually whenever I say Vancouver, people think Canada, and it is. It is the lesser exciting Vancouver of the two. I do love Vancouver, Canada. We drove up there. Shoot, it was probably about four years ago at this point. We absolutely loved it. But yeah, Vancouver, Washington is weren't based? Alright, awesome. Yeah, there's been a couple of times where, if I'm trying to navigate, I'm using GPS. I've have entered in like a starbucks or something and then I accidentally it shrouded me to Vancouver Washington. So I'm like, no, I'm not, I'm not going to drive that far. Yeah, but it's great to hear. Maybe both of us are from Vancouver, different parts, but Um, I'm happy here there. And you mentioned you're at click up. Very excited about that. We have your fun little background here. That's right, I know. Yep, so click up we're all about the fun colors and uh yeah, all that good stuff. And so, yeah, and I showed you before were...

...the cob but we got a bunch of different fun virtual backgrounds that I can show, but I opted for the vibrant, uh, I don't even know what you would call this design, this kind of color, the great exactly like an bombre rainbow gradient. I don't know. Your design team did an awesome job on it. Um. Well, talk to me about what do you guys do? I click up right now. WHAT DOES THE BRAND CLICK UP? Um, how could you compare it? I had a chance to look at you. Oh, yeah, I think most people know about it, but the one thing that always kind of captures me is that one APP to like replace them all, but to like yeah, I love that, and that's the thing that I would love to hear from you. Most marketers also, you know, we struggle with how do you market something that's meant for everyone? Right, totally, and if a tool, that's almost everything. So talk to me about what you guys do first. Yeah, sure, so to give you a couple of sentences, click up is a productivity platform and it's really a hub where a bunch of teams can come together to plan, organize and collaborate on their work. And typically productivity platforms they'll really only offer solutions around tasks, like, okay, you can solve your work problems using tasks. And yes, click up absolutely offers tasks and can help with task management, but we also offer a bunch of other features that can help teams work in the ways that you know they work best. And so Docs, chat, goals, whiteboards and a bunch of other features, and we're really the only platform or productivity platform that offers this suite of features for everybody to use within one platform. And it's funny you mentioned the one APP to replace them all totally. You know, that's definitely one of those things that definitely gets a lot of people's attention. In reality, it's one of those things where we're shifting more towards one APP to connect them all. Right, you can do a lot of different things within click up, but by no means are we trying to replace some of the other very staple kind of technologies within your tech stack. But we do want to be the host where you can actually get all of your work done within one platform, and so...

...that's a little bit of like a clarification, but hopefully that makes sense. It totally does and I love it. It's cheeky. I'm a Lord of the rings fans. So yeah, it definitely gets attention for sure, which is the job at that one liner for sure. I love it. Um. What is it that you specifically do, Um at Click up? Yeah, so I'm the head of competitive intelligence over a click up, and so anything that has to do with tracking what our competitors are up to and trying to figure out ways for our sellers to win more when more competitive deals and to help our product teams create and ship more differentiated product that is better than what our competitors offer. Um. Productivity and work management, task management, all these different categories. These are very mature categories and it's really exciting to be working for click up, which is definitely what I would consider like a challenger brand. It's really trying to rethink how we're approaching productivity and what it means to be productive in today's Day and age, because a lot has changed within work management and project management over the past couple of decades. It's a very mature category and so it's really exciting to see how the company is really rethinking all of those things and how companies work and like what it means to really be productive today. Yeah, and how long have you been at clicked up? So I've been here about nine months and I came from Zoom Info, where I was at for a few years before that, and so I've actually lived right down the street from Zoom infocus. They're based in Vancouver, and so I still see them every single day. I'm like hi, I used to walk down and Hey. So, so, Um, you were at Zoom Info before. Now you're at click up. How did your and I see that you were doing product marketing at Zoom Info, how did your experience add zoom info either like enable you, to support you, to make you successful in this role where you're at today, and you've been here for nine months, so I'm sure it's gonna win of experience for you. Yeah, so with Zoom Info, when I first started I was one of two product marketing managers and we were about five d employees at the time, and...

...so we really handled everything as it related to like a full stack product marketing manager. And when you think about that, that means you know, they were you're handling product launches, messaging, positioning, sales, enablement, when loss and competitive intelligence, amongst a host of other responsibilities. But competitive intelligence was in there. And as the company matured and grew and eventually I P oed. You know, we went through a few acquisitions and the Um, the product marketing team, grew quite a bit and so it was no longer just two people. It eventually grew to over twenty people on the product marketing team Um. And so when you get to that size, then you get the choice as a product marketing manager, hopefully you get the choice but to lean into one of the areas where you feel like you are, I don't know, where you where you performed the best or you have an opinion and where you can be most helpful. And so for some people that might be owning a specific product, if you if you're part of a company that has a suite of products, or maybe it's you're a product marketing manager but you're responsible for a specific buyer persona. We have the kind of set up that way, a click up. But then you can also be in charge of other, like more strategic functions, and so it was that way for me at Zoom Info, where I had done some competitive Intel as a product marketing manager, and then as we grew, I always just kind of held onto competitive intol is something that I really enjoyed doing. I felt like I was really good at it. I got really good feedback from other folks when I work with them regard to competitive Intel, and so I always tried to stick with it and uh, it eventually just became my full time role. I stopped doing product launches and I was just really full time in competitive Intel. And so I did that for about a year at Zoom Info and now I'm just over a click up, essentially building up the competitive Intel function there. Awesome. And then how many people do you work? Um, what's your team look like at Click up? So team of one, one, I put. Yeah, yeah, so for competitive and toes specifically. But the...

...thing that is so important to note when it comes to competitive programs is, yes, you might have us. It's very common to have a very small team of one or two people that are solely dedicated to competitive Intel. But in reality, competitive owners or, you know, the people who are leading the program they are partners with so many people across the organization, whether that's different product marketing managers, different just marketers in general, product managers, sales, like we really we have so many different branches and connections throughout the entire company where we get a little bit of additional help. And so, yes, I am a team of one, but I really work with dozens and dozens of people on a on a weekly basis and we're all working towards kind of the same organizational goals. Wow, first of all, that is extremely impressive that that you're team of one and you're actually working with so many different departments on this. I'm guessing you're using click up to help kind of keep yourself organized and yeah, Um, kind of. My question to you is, how do you prioritize, I guess, your day to day the relationships that you do have the the different departments, if the service? How how does that kind of fit into your your work, and how do you organize yourself considering how many people that you're having to, you know, support? Yes, so, when I first came in to click up, I started to try to figure out the exact same thing. I'm trying to think, okay, what are the teams that need my help the most? Where can I make the biggest impact right now? Like, what are some quick wins? Right that? That's like the term. We always here and start up world. What are some quick wins, and after working with some of the leaders on the sales team and the product team and obviously product marketing, we ended up deciding that, okay, first and foremost, we need to really focus in on making sure that our sales team is really confident and they feel...

...really good whenever they're, you know, whenever a competitor comes into a conversation or a deal becomes competitive, and so that was kind of my North Star for the past I don't know that I should I should say the first six to seven months ish, I was really making sure that we had great enablement programs, that our sales team had proper educational assets, so like different courses that they could take, different UH battle cards, share able collateral that they could educate customers. That was my big focus and then, once we felt like that was in a good place, now my my responsibilities are really shifting to more on the product side. How can our product teams stay up to date on what our competitors are up to? What was the stuff that really matters for them? What stuff that doesn't matter? And that's really what we're just trying to figure out right now, because they're two completely different audiences. Whether you're catering to sales versus product Um, and so that's kind of what we're in the middle of right now, just trying to make sure that both teams are feeling really good, and then, on top of that, we're also trying to make sure that the entire organization is aware of why we win and lose, and so we're setting up a win loss program over a click up, and we're trying to answer exactly that, trying to figure out like, okay, who are the teams that were best for? What are the features that they're using? And if we're losing, who are we losing too? What are the features were losing on? All those kinds of things. So all of that sounds extremely interesting and one question they do you have? You know, as you're describing, what is that you guys do? First I want to ask have you noticed certain trends, especially obviously with COVID and buyer? You know, buyer decisions are a little bit differently now budget cuts they like that. Have you noticed anything differently that now you're able to kind of share with either the product team or the sales team? How do you also get the Intel needed, like what we are the tools, unless it's like top secret with them. What are the stuff that you guys are doing and how do you determine what is imployed and enough to share with the product...

...team for them to take into consideration for, you know, their product field? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, Um, I mean no secrets at all. I mean and when it comes to competitive Intel, Um, the text deck that I'm working with is Craon for my you know, competitive Intel provider. They host our battle cards and they give me alerts for all the competitors that we're tracking that we're subscribed to. And I also use closed, which is essentially like a third party consultant firm that will conduct, when lost, interviews on your behalf, because typically not customers, but the folks that you lose deals with, they're more apt to speak with a third party consultant than they would be to speak with somebody from the same organization, and so they work on that with us. And typically what what I do each quarter is I try to take a look at like, okay, what are the organizational goals that we're working on? What is our product team really interested in? What are they working on in terms of just like the features of the platform that they're really trying to enhance Um and improve over the over the next few quarters. And then I take that and then I essentially try to figure out, like, okay, how can I dig deeper into what our competitors are offering in this area and what are they putting their resources into, and then that can help essentially figure out like okay, like here's what they're doing, this is like all the eggs that they're putting in this basket, this basket, this basket, and here's where we are. Okay, as an organization, we're focusing on x, Y and Z. knowing that we have our top competitors and they're focusing in on all of these areas, we need to take a look at those areas and figure out, okay, are we feeling good about those areas as well? Should we reconsider and try to think about like maybe we should allocate resources to match some of those initiatives, or do we feel really good about what we're doing right now and like just kind of keep on keeping on in our current path? And so crant is really great with surfacing up insights and helping me figure out, okay, here's well these competitors are working on here's where they're allocating their resources, and then...

...it's just a matter of curating that information and then bring it back to our leadership team and making sure they're aware of everything that's going on in the market. Alright, no, I love that, Um, and so it says here. Um, when I actually had a chance to review your linked in profile too, you've got that competitive playbook. Course. Is that something that you have independently kind of champion or is this part of, like the work that you're doing at click up? So that's the yeah, I call it the competitive playbook. It is the learnings that I've kind of I've experienced over the past few years, both at Zoom Info and click up, and it's my personal playbook for creating a competitive program from scratch or optimizing one that you might already have in place. And so all those lessons that I talked about in the course, they're all, you know, going through my personal experiences at both of those organizations, click up and zoom info, and kind of guiding you through so that you don't have to make some of the same mistakes that I've made and where I've found a lot of success with building competitive programs, because I do feel like at this point there are so many sass businesses out there, there are so many options for buyers and the old kind of sentiment of Oh, we don't really have many competitors, oh we're like a market of one. It's just it's not true anymore, especially in our industry, and so Um, it's more important than ever to really make sure that you have a really healthy program that can really have a decent understand that can help you have a decent understanding of what's around you. What's a potential external threat and how you can actually deal with it? What are some realistic expectations for your program those kinds of things. So that's why I built the course, because I felt like a lot of people could really benefit from something like that. Does a course make sense for, you know, more mature companies who have kind of larger budgets, larger resources, or does it make sense for, you know, even smaller companies start outs, people who have basically no competitive intelligence team? Maybe it could be part of the product marketing team...

...or just the marketing team if they want to kind of start this on their own? Totally? Yeah, it's and you know I'm all about niche ing down and I wish I could just say, oh, we're only good for the s mb s, but you know, in this case it's good for if you're starting a program from scratch or if you're optimizing one you already have in place. And so if you go to the the website, which is competitive playbook dot com, and you can see a list of all the testimonials, and I've shared it with a lot of my peers in a competitive intel. So we have some folks from slack, from Zendesk UH to name a few, where you know, they they already had programs in place, but they're using some of the lessons and some of the observations that I've made to just make sure that their program is optimized and it can be the best that it can be. And I'm not saying that this resource is perfect. It is not the only thing that you need if you're building out a competitive program but it's definitely something that, like I said, I wanted to build out to make sure that other folks had a good understanding of like. Okay, like here I am, I'm s posible for this program if I feel like it could be improved or I just like want to bounce what I'm doing off of what somebody else has been doing, then it will be a good resource for you. Yeah, well, it will definitely. Um, when we are when this episode does go live, will definitely share it and let our community get their hands on it too. Cool, UM, based off of like your experience now at this company, right, that clicked up and zoom into and I see you had advisorables in the past. What do you think is like one major lesson that stands out throughout your career where you're at today? M One major lesson? Let me think, because most of my work, or the work that I've been that I'm most excited about, it's all come from from really honing in on one thing. It's it's specializing, and I do I see the debate online where it's do you want to specialize or do you want to generalize in something, and do you want to be like, you know, Jack of all trades kind of a thing? And, to be honest, I respect people who can do either. There are plenty of general out there that I really look up to and I wish I could...

...be a generalist at times. I really like admire like the CMOS out there who can talk brand in one sentence and then talk demand Gen in another and the talk revenue, and you know what I mean, like they can just like they have their hands and everything, and I really admire that. For me personally, where I found the most success is just doubling down on something that I'm really interested in and then going really, really deep. And so all of the you know, the podcast, the course, when I felt like I started getting a bit more recognition at work, it all started happening when I started doubling down on competitive Intel. I became the guy that was okay, like he's if you have a question about competitors, like go ask Andy. That kind of a thing, and so that that would be the thing that I think has really helped me over the past few years as I've been trying to navigate, you know, the software space specifically, and and I see that you've built a pretty large, like personal brand on linkedin around competitive intelligence. How has that been right? How is it using linkedin and actively posting and actively engaging with your community? How has that helped your career? How has that helped connect to you, to other competitive intelligence professionals? How has it helped maybe you guys get a little bit more exposure for click up. Has It helped in any way? Actually, yeah, that's a good question. So we don't. I don't. We don't track, like how did you hear from us? Oh, I heard from Andy and now I'm here buying we so we don't do that. I like to think that that some of my work on Linkedin has brought more brand awareness. I can only hope, but it's been. I mean, even if I'm just speaking from you know personally, it has been so helpful to put time and effort into things like linkedin because, number one, when you're thinking about competitive Intel, you have to think about the history of the function, which was historically...

...very secretive and very closed off, very I don't know, it's it's it's kind of hard to explain, but it wasn't super friendly, like you didn't really like the trade secrets, like, Oh, I don't know, there's just always this kind of weird like C S. I kind of vibe to it. C I A, I should say, Um, but yeah, and so being able to be like a little bit more vocal. I was initially a little apprehensive about it because I thought like, Oh, am I going to get in trouble for sharing some of this stuff, but at the end of the day, what I share is nothing different than if a company shares top five ways to increase traffic to your website or something like that. It's it's, you know, it's very, you know, high level. They're kind of like templates. I'm not sharing any trade secrets or anything like that, and by doing that I've also opened myself up to, you know, learning and meeting other folks that are in competitive Intel, which we're a small group of people, but everyone is so kind, so knowledge a bowl and you know, if if I hadn't done that, to think that like I wouldn't know these people and like have the opportunity that interact with them every day, it's it really makes my life more enjoyable, my work life more enjoyable, and so, Um, yeah, it's been really, really beneficial. I would say then, yeah, yeah, no, I. No, I absolutely. Um, I can see a lot of value in the stuff that you're sharing. We at open sense started actively getting our team, whoever is interested, you know, to start posting more on Linkedin. We call it like the evangelist program. A lot of people they felt like they wanted to do that they felt a little uncomfortable to start. So our a marketing team actually helps them kind of get started and we've noticed that it's trickled down right, like we've actually seen growth even in our own our company, Linkedin page. But people are definitely more receptive to people than they are to the brands. So you sharing top five, you know, tools that you use versus like a brand sharing get more people are going to pay attention to you over the brand. Yes, Um, I want to transition this conversation...

...a little bit too, kind of learning a little bit more about you and kind of how you also managed like work life balance. So tell me how do you bandage your work life balance? Yeah, that's a great question. Sometimes I'm not super great at it, to be honest, especially since like the whole work from home pandemic things started. So when I when I first I was at zoom and fell before the pandemic, I was really great about just closing my laptop and then going home to the day and that was it. And obviously the pandemic changed everything and I'm still even to this day trying to get used to like really knowing when to switch my brain off. But my wife and I are both pretty good about like, okay, we're going to move out of the office at this point in time, and that's typically around five PM. And once we leave the office, then we try not to go back into it and we both, you know, are pretty good about making dinner together, having some sort of eating activities that we can look forward to doing, and it's usually like having an activity to like move on to. That's what I found. And so, whether for me that can be going to the gym, going somewhere, or if it's just going on a walk or playing music or something like that, having that activity right after work like just to kind of put my mind like forces my mind into that other activity. That's where I found to be the most effective. Otherwise, I'll be in the office like the entire day and I'll just be like staring my laptop, which is super depressing. And when you were at zoom in full before you were walking to you, I'm guessing that you're probably spending some time in the office. Yeah, yeah, exactly, and so I'd be in the office from I don't know, eight thirty to four thirty ish, and then from there right I would just go to the gym, and so it would be like this. You had this whole process of those in my laptop. Done for the day, I'm going to go to the gym, focus on me and then I'm gonna go home. And yeah, it's really hard to recreate that when you don't have, like the office to go to. And so, like I said, I'm still trying to be better about...

...it, but just kind of having these forcing functions of like, okay, we're gonna leave the room at this time, we're going to go and do something. That's been helpful for me. Yeah, I asked that selfishly because I like to I like to find out what other people are doing, especially like marketing or competitive intelligence, product marketing, design, that's all, you know, requires a lot of creativity and you're spending right just staring at a screen. The less creative you are. I'm I'm better at it than I was. I'm still really bad at it. I definitely experienced periods of burnout more often than not. But yeah, I can definitely attest to that. And what I found is that taking time away from the thing that you're interested in it doesn't make you any less of a marketer or any less of like competitive I don't even know, like what the shortened version of competitive, competitive Intel guy doesn't make any less of that kind of a thing. You know, it just and typically, when you actually take that time off, it forces your brain into like some other like to where you can actually get more creative. I can't tell you the number of times where I've come up with different ideas for either of the playbook, for for the podcast or for work. You know that, like during a workout or on a walk or something like that, when I'm doing something that has nothing to do with work. And so, yeah, it's when I feel like I'm burning out, I really try to just lean on the fact that, like, okay, like I'm gonna just like let myself feel this and it'll move through me and then it just happens. Like we're creative people, and so once we're ready, then we'll start like just naturally thinking about different ways of approaching different problems, whether it's work or with our passions. What is one thing you can't live without? Um, caffeine. With you there. What's your favorite? Your favorite? So we just bought this an espresso has been yeah, it's like...

...a Bougee gift to ourselves and we, uh, I used to have just like a twenty dollar like Mr Coffee, kind of Cheene, and you know, I'd have to like my beans every single day and like you'll take a long time to get too hot all the time. And then finally I was like, all right, let's break down, we're gonna get an espresso, and so now we have some nice smooth coffee every single morning, and so that. You know, I just like beverages all together. So Diet poke is also really good. Also really enjoy my pre workout before I go and get my workout in and all those things. Yeah, I love that. I Love Them. Yeahs I'm with you there. I got an espresso during like when the lockdown happened. was Um, either luber eating like starbucks or whatever coffee show my name by espresso saved so much money, but I cannot live without it now. I recently Um started, well, I now I bought a pre workout because I could feel myself like really my workouts, the working is this delicious like pink lemonade flavor. Yeah, okay, don't get addicted to the flavor, because I don't want to use it. I don't want to rely on it all the time. Yeah, and you gotta be careful. I definitely went through like a massive caffeine addiction early on in quarantine and so I'm good now, but like, yeah, you can't mess around with that stuff. YEA, also with the Diet Coke. I don't know if you've seen this, this new diet coke cat like the healthier diet coke, but no, I haven't. It's like gone viral on on social I think it started on Tiktok. But if you get a cup of ice, you fill it up with ice all the way and then you put a little bit of Bal Samic Vinegar and then Soda Water. Apparently it tastes very similar to a diet coke. I haven't tried it. I'm reading right now the cursed concoction is made of balsamic vinegar. In anybody check it out? Check it out and tell me if it tastes the same as diet. Okay, I'm a little scared, but I'll do my best. Yeah, and Um,...

...one last thing. Who are some of your role models? Who Inspires you? And maybe someone, if it's someone that you worked with, that you think we should invite on our show next oh yeah, I mean shoot, I admire everyone on my and I was just I was just telling you this to one of my co workers. Like I just absolutely love our team. Like so competitive Intel rolls up under the broader product marketing function and that's run by Mike Berger. He's our VP of product marketing and, uh yeah, he's just done a great job of of like putting together just a really great group of people to handle customer marketing, product marketing, sales enablement, and so I really admire everyone how we're working. Right now. We're talking outside of flick up. I would say some other folks that I always tried to pay really close attention to. Adam Schoenfeld, who just started Pierre Signal Dot Org. Definitely check that out to a great resource for marketers, especially if you're in SASS. I would also say pep lea, who runs how to win. That's like another really great business podcast, and he also owns winter, such casting platform, and so those are great resources to learn from. And Yeah, that's all I can think of right now. I love that. I Love I love both of them, Um Peplea, have I'll check out pure signal winter. I love what they're doing and these guys are killing it. We'd use winter and man have yeah, a lot of like it got us to the point where we spend so much time just, you know, reading our own copy and just stuck inside of our own heads and then kind of debating amongst our team trying to figure out what position in your product, what's the best way to position your story? And then it takes like a quick tool like winter to be like all right, let's stare, let's just stop debating actually understand what people do think about us. And Man,...

I can't even tell you how much time it's saved and how much it's like you you forget we've been living, breathing and eating our own brands so much. It's just that taking that step back. I love it. I'm planning on running more winter tests. But, yeah, I love these kind of tools and they're awesome, especially for SAS businesses. Everything. You know, when when you're when you're paying attention to different brands out there, everyone sounds the same. We're all it's you, all the marketers are struggling with the same problems and like it takes really taking a step back and looking at the world differently to finally break out of that pattern. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. There's so many Um phrases and jargon that we as marketers get used to saying and think that it makes sense and in reality, when you just a great test is like what I feel comfortable saying this, like in front of like my mom or dad or like my friend WHO's not in tech, like would they actually understand it or they be like what? Because I feel it's actually become kind of a joke at this point where you're trying to explain what you do for a living or what your company does and the other person just has no idea what you're saying. And so if if you can say it and you feel comfortable saying that thing to your family or to your friends, then that's a really good litmus test for like really good messaging that you know it's actually a clear value that you're bringing to the table. Yeah, so I love that and you said that one of the things that I shared with my marketing team. I think it was winter that shared this name, but it basically it created this brand, like this banana SAS brand. Yeah, I saw that, I thought that I was dying laughing because I was like, Oh my God, can we just stop can we stop everything that we're doing and making school back and look at all of our look at all of our messaging and just, yeah, hold those words, full that jargon, and it was just seeing it from like a banana context. It just makes you like look, we need to stop, we all need to...

...just calm down. I think even like thinking about if this is how I would describe it to my mom and my brother or my sister. If I'm not going to describe it like that, then just don't do it. I like, I have twin sister who who's in sales and she's a county executive, but she always jokes with me and she's like, Oh God, Um, one of the companies she used to work out, the marketers had to write their sequences. Um, and she's like I hate marketers, you know, like you know, why? Why? Why would I ever say this? Like, why would I ever say this to someone? Like hope you're happy, you know, an awesome or dandy morning or something like that. I'm not. I'm sorry. Now whenever I'm about to write something or even if I put something on my linkedin because I have to sometimes remind myself that, hey, just get out of like there shouldn't be a work mode in a personel mode. Yes, like you have your own brand and you have your own voice and each brand has her own voice. But she wouldn't really be that far off. I shouldn't feel he alien Um, but sometimes she'll pring me and she'll say hey, a like you need, you guys, need to change this or I didn't really understand a word and I was like, all right, you guys, let's go back to the drawing board. But Um, heart represent I love that you mentioned both. The winter's great tool, but I don't want to take up too much of your time. I know you have you have a very, very busy day. But honestly, Andy, it was an absolute pleasure to have you. I absolutely enjoyed our conversation and we will make sure that we liked all of your assets for our community. But thank you so much for joining both writing camp. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It was really fun. Thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you would give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to strengthen their skills with tips and inspiration. You want to learn more about the company behind the show, head to open sense dot com. That's O P E N s e. n s e Dot Com. We'll catch you on the next episode.

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