Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 67 · 1 week ago

Feedback Loops & Why You Desperately Need Them with Matt Paige from HatchWorks

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

If you’re not leveraging the power of feedback loops or aren’t quite sure how to make them a part of your process, this is the episode for you.

Matt Paige, Vice President of Marketing & Strategy at HatchWorks, has a deep background in product marketing strategy and passionately believes in the power of feedback loops. That’s why we invited him to join us on Growth Marketing Camp.

In this week’s episode, Matt shares why he believes that strategy is the glue between marketing and product, how to refine your strategy through feedback loops (& make it a part of your process), and how he uses feedback loops to build the narrative, core values, and the soul of HatchWorks. Plus, we touch on why you shouldn’t shy away from simplicity and how to make the complex simple. Dig in!

Welcome to growth marketing camp, podcast, powered by open sense, where we sit down with leaders and founders from diverse backgrounds and marketing, tech and beyond to explore what it takes to build a leading brand that's shaving the world of B Two B let's get into it. Hey, everybody, this is jazz binning, Co host of growth marketing camp. Welcome to our next episode, where I'm happy to welcome Matt Page, Vice President of marketing and strategy at hats works. Matt, it's great to have you on the show. Welcome. Yeah, I appreciate it. Excited for our chat to day. Jess, I'm super excited to you. I know that you mentioned you just came came off of a flight from Dallas. How are you feeling right now? And you're still feeling pretty pumped. Yeah, a little bit sleepy, but I'm pumped for this conversation excited to get into it. It was flun his first, you know, in person kind of customer conversation in a while. Got Some flashbacks of uh, you know, being in the office and all of that, but no, really good conversation. Good to be in person with some kind stomers. It was really good. All Right, nice and you you mentioned you were working at hatchworks and that's based in Atlanta. Are you guys fully remote right now, or is it like a hybrid situation? Yeah, we were fully remote. So what actress Sayes we build in design and build solutions for our customers will be stand out in the market. But what's happened for us is ever since Covid we transitioned a lot of our business on the delivery side to Latin America, so that we actually had it set up pre covid, but it's blown up. So in terms of having same time zone alignment, it's delivered a lot of value. You don't have to be, you know, kind of physically co located with your teams anymore, but it's cool. We we do these kind of internal meetings. I was on with one right before this, but I was on with somebody from Colombia, somebody from Costa Rica and somebody from Argentina. Getting to know them, but it's a really cool environment. But yeah, we're all remote just by virtue of us being, you know, across the the US and Latin America. Oh Kay, that's awesome. Yeah, we um at open since we're a fully remote team. Too. I know I was just mentioning I'm the only Canadian employee, but I always don't the Canadian division of open sense, our marketing managers actually out in Montana. So we're all just where the best talent is. That's that's our approach to our I love that and that's kind of like, you know, that's the way life should be now, and uh, I mean before we kick it up, especially because we're heading into the weekend. I know the weekend hasn't started yet, but a lot of us try to find ways too. We also try to find ways to share things that other marketers are doing and other professionals are doing to make their days, in their lives better. One of the things that has haunted me in the past and haunts many people, are Sunday scaries. You mentioned something called Sunday prep. So before we actually get into the podcast, tell me what your what your version of Sunday prep is, and what you kind of recommend other people should do to kind of kick starts their week. Yeah, it's like the number one stress reliever for your your work life. Just before you get into your week. I take a little bit of time kind of map out what are those like top three things I want to accomplish. We actually do this across our entire leadership team. We've we tell each other in slack to start our our week. What's your top three things? How did you do on your your last week's top three things? But really kind of aligning you know well, well, it's not noisy, you're in the depth of the week. Take time to be proactive about what you want to accomplish and it helps so much. It helps you kind of just get that off your mind. It's not on paper, somewhere you can kind of focus on family and it takes, you know, ten fifteen minutes to do it's not a huge, a huge Sunday commitment to do it. m I absolutely love that. You know, one of the things I had realized too, very similar to that. But I like the way the whole leadership team and match works is doing this. Um, I had it closer to one. I had my promotion, so I like, Oh my God, there's so much to do. But just simply opening my laptop when I'm relaxed on a Sunday and even going through emails alleviated a lot of the tension I had for that Monday morning. Because I'm like Hey, I know you know, just organizing my emails, kind of getting myself set up for the day, was it enough for me to kind of lower a little bit of that stress. Now it's...

...a lot better. I remember in the very beginning when there was really nothing else to do on the weekends, especially, except set at home and watch Netflix. That's when it felt the worst. Now it's like Hey, I actually have fun things to Bocus so on, and then having something like that, it was it definitely did alieve it. I love the fact that your entire leadership team at Hash works is doing this actively. Yeah, it's about accountability. At the end of the day. You know we hold each other accountable and you know we we actually get stuff done that we say we're going to get that. So it's pretty cool to see you kind of shared a little bit about what Hash Works is. But what do you guys do high level and who we ad guys as target audience? Yes, so our targets kind of in the mid market area and the big thing with us is we have a firm belief about how you should design and build software solutions. Right, we talked about something kind a product trio. Everything we do is agile, but across design, engineering and product having those core folks working together through the discovery process, through the problem with space, solution space, and then through development too. It's it's critical. You know, a lot of people had to say they're agile, but so many folks are kind of falling in that trap of still, you know, falling, falling into the water, waterfall type of mentality. But I mean everything we do at hatch works is Agile. Our marketing team runs in two weeks, sprints even in terms of how we prioritize our work, how we work through, you know, ideations on kind of campaigns and that, you know, kind of more nebulous area taking into something more more concrete, but that's that's the big thing with us. It's how we design software, how we develop software, and then our near shore delivery model just kind of pulls it all together a nice neat value bow. But you know, we're real focused in the kind of the mid market space. A lot of B two B products that we build for our customers. Awesome. And you mentioned that most of your customers are, you guys are global companies. So since you've just started interacting with them, where is it the coolest customer location that you've experienced? Yeah, most of our stumers are in the US. A lot of them are also globe. I mean a lot of big names, even from like a t and t to Cox, but even some you know people already. is another really interesting one. It's like the Uber for jobs and work. So it's a really neat kind of platform there that we helped build out. But yeah, so all over the continental us. Um, one of them is based in Germany. So yeah, all over, all over the US. That's cool. and Um, you mentioned you have marketing manager in Montana. So just curious what's the size of your marketing team and what's the sides of your overall like the full hatchworks team? Yeah, so marketing team is very small. So we brought marketing in the house recently, back in April. So we're about four people strong. Our our designers actually in Guatemala and he's a rock star. He's awesome. and Andy are marketing managers in Montana, like you mentioned. He knows some of the folks that have been extras on yellowstone. So that's it's kind of cool. Yeah, so all over we're about a hundred and fifty people. Within the company though, total God as wow, really starting to get into our rhythm on the marketing side. Get a nice little team going right now. Oh Wow, and the fact that you guys even have a hundred, fifty people. So kind of curious. And Your Global Company, how do you organize the work that your team is doing? I know most, most companies right they're doing a little bit of service based, servicing their own employees, they're servicing their customers. Where do would you say of the bulk of your guys work goes? Yeah, the majority of our work with most of our people is servicing our our customers are clients. So they're actually building solutions with our customers and sometimes that's a full kind of autonomous hatchworks team. Sometimes we integrate with their team. Uh. So different models there in terms of how we work together. And then what do you specifically do? Yes, so I cover marketing and strategy hatch works, so kind of looking at how our position in the market. And then how do we talk about hatchworks? Right, so we're getting into this method. I know everybody's, you know, high on the Chris Walker kind of framework. Right now...

...we're trying to think on how do we do demand creation and demand capture, being intentional about that. So a lot of focus has been placed on kind of core pieces of content. How are we repurposing the content, because we're a small team at the end of the day, you know, we don't have a ton of people, so we gotta we gotta get a lot of Bank for our our marketing bucket essence. So that's been a lot of our focus, like telling our story in that narrative way. That the value of near sure how how the market has changed, and I think that's a big thing from a marketing standpoint. When you're talking about positioning your products, you know you've got to build that story around the right you gotta build the narrative around how you're serving your customers. How are you fixing their pain points, their problems? And we like to take jobs to be done approach to things. So what how are you helping your customers may make progress, you know, and when you look at competition, it's not just the normal kind of competitors you have, but it's anything, any any type of other option to help them complete their job to be done. Like for many products, excel is a is a competitive solution. Right, doing nothing is a is a competitive solution. So we really try to take at things in terms of how we're serving our customer, how we're telling that story. I think it's just kind of foundational for any any marketing team. There's a big strategy element to it that a lot of people, I think, overlooked. Yeah, on your Linkedin as well, you talk a lot about feedback loops. So what is a feedback loop to someone who's never heard of it? And then how do you actively use feedback loops in hatch works? Yeah, so that's that's something I've been real big on lately, kind of talking about personally, but it's something we we leverage in hatchworks. I mean, in my mind it's the secret to building, in marketing products that your ideal customer actually wants to buy. Right, and I've been through the pain of spending a year plus building a product, you release it into the market and the market's response is, you know, not no response at all. Right, yeah, the he is getting this feedback loops set up before you actually build your product and like what is the feedback week? You know, they naturally occur in nature, they are in our bodies. It's just kind of natural regulators for how things how things go. But you know, the easiest one is actually talking to your customers. So many people overlook this. Like talk to them before you start building something. So identify what is that pain point, validate the pain point with, you know, qualitative research, just talking, talking to the customer, and let that direct to you in terms of what you want to build. The same thing with how we build a hatchworks you. You want to understand the pain point. The research side of things is so important, so you have that note up front and then getting to all right, what's our M vt functionality that we want to build, like what's that thin slice of functionality that's actually going to help a customer complete their job to be done? But that's that's the big seven there. There's feedback loops everywhere. They're probably in your business. You don't even know about it yet, uh, but that's the key. Identify your feedback loops, get them working for your busines this operationalize them, optimize them. The shorter you can make them, the better. M Yeah, it was super interesting when I when I was kind of going through like din you talked a lot about that. At the perfect time I had gotten an email Um, one of the content newsletters I subscribed to by every there was a UM. I believe she was ahead of community at clubhouse. Remember Club House? I totally forgot about club house up until I read this article. I'm like, Oh my God, Club hills was so huge just about a year ago. She shares twenty five lessons learned from basically the rise and fall of clubhouse, and the one of the lessons that just kept on repeating, especially she's focused a lot on the product sun and go to market, was the fact that they should have spent more time talking to their customers, talking to their users, and they spent a look especially the engineering. The product team was spending investing too much time building their product, making it, you know, adding to the complexity of the product, instead of going back focusing a little bit more on you are not really the user's experience and not spending enough time even experiencing their product to the...

...point where they can anticipate where the users are experiencing the most friction. And you know, also reading you share about feedback loops, also understanding how important debt is in product marketing, which does not seem to be happening often or feels that way. Yeah, I've never met a customer that, after they push something out, that's like Oh, we we knew exactly what we were doing, we had it spot on. But it's it's human nature. We all believe we know what needs to be built, like I've, I've personally gone through that and until like, the market kind of just slaps you in the face with the reality you don't you don't know. So it's it's so true. And the interesting thing you're talking to your customers is like baseline. Just go do that, right, if you don't have customers yet yet, talk to people that you think are your ideal customer and you'll kind of be able to, you know, tweak it as you go. But even within products you can have feedback loops. You can actually embed these into your product. A need ones, you know, grammarly. I don't know if you're familiar with that solution, but they send you kind of your weekly status of how you did. Like that's a that's a variable feedback leap. It's giving me feedback about how I've done using their product. That's a a reminder about their product. I kind of look forward to it in a way to kind of see how I did right. So that's just another form of a feedback loop you can actually start to build into your product after you built a solution. But yeah, they're they're they're powerful for a company who is just starting out and they haven't really Um gone that route before. What is Bear Min their line? or You said, just if you don't have if you have customers, start off by talking to them. How much does it make sense to talk to them? Does it make sense to start with focus groups, have a certain set of questions set at a survey? What do you think it's like? The bear men a little bit easiest sweeper someone to get started. Yeah, I would not recommend focus groups to start off, and I would not recommend serve as either. Actually, like the way I think about it is start more qualitative conversations, very few questions, like maybe three kind of questions you want to talk about and just kind of validate. But get get them talking, and people are a lot more open to talking than you would think, especially in that kind of context. But starting a qualitative way, talk to multiple folks and you'll start to see patterns emerge and at that point then you can kind of go into all right, let's layer in kind of a quantitative aspect to it with surveys or something like that. But yeah, I think so many people try to over complicate user research. Talking to customers. Just have an idea. What's that core thing you want to validate. Get them talking. Let let them talk about their pain and that's that's also I talked about a couple of times that jobs to be done framework. Like anybody listening, go, go google that. There's an approach to talking to customers. And when we started this, it's funny that the example a give is like buying a camera or buying a mattress, and we did like a little test one internally with our hatch forks team and our VP of products. We use the example of her buying a fit and we, you know, went through the process, the where you're supposed to go through, trying to identify those trigger points, where was the pain points, and we got under like she had this new dog that was escaping, jumping over the fence and she needed a new fence to keep her dogging like. That's that's a pain point, that's a job to be done. It wasn't the aesthetic of fuel. But then you can start to think about. Okay, how do I craft my product around that? How do I craft my positioning around that? That's that's where the gold is. So just literally start talking to people and jobs to be done. Framework is a really good starting point. Yeah, I will definitely. I've heard of it, I just haven't actually Dune into it. So I will definitely note that down. It's so interesting that you even mentioned keep it simple, because I think normally when people want to go this route, they're gonna they will naturally open complicated, because I feel like most humans kind of shy away from simplicity a little bit because it doesn't feel complete enough. Yeah, one of the things that you mentioned too. Well, one of the things that we didn't open sense. I'm sure you've probably heard about. You know winter. Yes, yeah, well, now I love winter me. Basically, we've been struggling with okay, how can...

...we redefine our positioning and actually build a narrative for our company, you know, for open sense and in a way that makes sense to our target? Obviously we've been living, breathing and eating our company or open sense, our product or solution to the point where we are. So when the weeds and winter was an example. We're like hey, let's test it out. It looks promising and and I actually went through the winter portal myself and I've even submitted myself as a marketer who's there to give feedback to other people. Yeah, yeah, and I thought it was so interesting to a the winter questions. It's literally three. Right. Does this resonate? Just going through it myself, I'm like, keep it open ended, you keep it simple, let them talk, let that share there. That way you're you're not really Um, you're not guiding them to you know what I mean, and it's like that is the perfect way. I think too. I can connect what you just shared with the feedback loops and reaching out to your our team. Is what I had experienced on winter. Yeah, winter's an awesome example and just in general, pep lies just followed him like he's he's like prototypical of like what to do if you're gonna build a product, and the biggest pieces, like your network. How he's promoting winter is like it's it's textbook for anybody just looking to do it. Like he's got a podcast. What I like about him is he connects strategy too, to everything he does, like his his podcast is focused on strategy, like defining what market you ought to play and how are you gonna win in that market. I think so many more marketers could benefit from truly understanding what strategy is. But yeah, like winter, in and of itself, that product is a giant feedback. Look, that's that's what it is. That's what their whole business is based around. It's a really cool concept. I'm excited to see see how it does as it keeps growing. Yeah, same, same, um you. You focus a lot and it seems like you're very, very passionate about strategy. To complete the sentence, strategy is blank, and then strategy is not blank. Oh my God, there's a whole book right behind it. Gets strategy, bad strategy. That strategy is defining where you want to play it, how you want to win at its like baseline core and where you want to play, being like the market you want to play in, and how are you going to win in the market, because at the end of the day, like there's there's only so many winners. Um, they are going to be there in the market. Right, you really just want to be kind of like competing and just kinda hanging around, you know, so the really finding and it gets something finding your your niche, like where do you want to focus in on? That's that's a big piece of it. There's so many sub layers you can kind of get into. But yeah, the market you wanna, where you want to play and how you how you're gonna win in that market. You picked Anna Dunford is another really good follow on the strategy side of that. It's not tactics, it's not channels, it's not Tik Tok, it's not linkedin the those are always to operationalize your strategy. But you gotta Know Your Strategy and it has to be known across the whole organization. Marketing, product engineering, those other things are tactics, ways to execute against the strategy. So that's I think a lot of people get confused with that. Like the words strategy gets thrown around literally everything. Marketing Strategy, engineering strategy, product strategy. It's attatched to so many terms, but at its cored's you know where do you want to play, how are you going to win there? And then so you just added a curve Baalti, which I think most companies really struggled to do, even if you're a small company. or a large one. How do you coordinate your strategy across the rest of the company? How do you get everyone on the same phase? Yeah, so I think it's different based on the size and scale of your organization. Like one of the customers we were talking to recently, they're like, you know, multibillion dollar public organization. Yeah, publicly traded, that's that's a whole another type of undertaking. But at the end of the A...

...it's uh, you know, a knowing what your strategy is. So at like a leadership team level of knowing what that is and then just repeating it over and over again. Like people, it's human nature to feel like, Oh, I've said something, everybody knows it. No, like literally repeated every week if you can in some form or fashion, like we have bi weekly we call them hatch Huddles, weet the whole team together remotely on online and just talking about everything going on at hatch works. That's the key thing that we do. It's the repetition of like what we're trying to do. Um, but yeah, that's that's the biggest thing is. It starts with communication, in alignment from the top down in a lot of ways, because if if leadership is not guiding that. People are going to have their own interpretation of what the strategy is and it's no faults of their own. It's just, you know, that's that's human nature. You'RE gonna YOU'RE gonna try to make your own way if if you're not, if you're not given direction. I like Um that you shared about Hash huddles. Talk to me a little bit more about what that entails, like how much information are you actually sharing with the rest of your team? Are you in the leadership team getting together and discussing it before we've communicated out to the company? Like how much information is enough to share with everybody else? Yeah, I mean we we are very open and transparent hatch works. That's kind of one of our our core values. So we probably shared too much the most companies would like, even down to the financial level, how we're doing and everything. But yeah, we plan in an advance. A big undercurrent is the strategy, but there's also elements of, you know, people talking about the projects they are on. We do something called a hatchy every month and it's somebody that's exemplified one of our core values. So recognizing people for that and again, like I'm a big believer in story on the marketing side, getting people talking about the stories, the great things they're doing for by it's how they approached something and that's the best way to learn, for others to learn. Like Disney does this at their parks right. They have people come in, all the people that work at the parks every day. They have a huddle and they talk about something they did the day before. So, like sparks side is for other people. As you get. Yeah, no, I love that. You guys. You guys got some hey, let's help notes. Yeah, there you get. Yeah, you guys seem like you're doing a lot, and which is great, because the same like the company that working out very, very transparent. So if I'm asking questions, I'm like selfishly trying to get some ideas from another layer of that is the founder too, and we're lucky, like we have a really strong founder, and Brandon Powell especially. Like, if you're a marketer, like looking where you're gonna go next, look at the founder. Does does he have a purpose, as you have a vision for the company, you know, how does he talk about that? That's a big piece that I think people overlook when joining in new company. So that's a really big piece. Like what does the founders stand for? All of that, Um, one of the things you also mentioned earlier. You mentioned, you know, you try to even shout out people that that exemplifies the core values of hatchworks. Is that when you're trying to figure out the poor values of your brand, right, is that an exercise you did with the rest of the leadership team? Is something that you were able to do after talking to the CEO? How did you guys build your narrative, your core values and the soul of WHO Hash works is? Yeah, so it was actually an interesting exercise. We had different people from different areas of the organization come in, so it was not just like leadership team, top down type of thing. This was the case where we did do a survey for folkes just kind of like what his hatchworks mean to you and just some other it was all qualitative feedback, but we did do it through a survey and then from there we kind of distilled it down, like what were the key themes that we saw and we got down to our our core values from there and then we, you know, tied story to all those the way we talked about our core values so they don't get like stowed away the power point deck that nobody ever sees again. Is Repetition. We talked about it a lot. Every new employee that comes in gets educated on our core values. We talked about it in the hat shuttles story. That's the other one I talked about. And Accountability, so holding each other accountable. Whenever we start a new project, we kind of remind each other of our...

...core values, like we even have we have core value emojis and slack so it's like any kind of like little reminder feedback loop you can have to have a the top of mine. Yeah, Oh man, I love the I love the emojis. You guys did come up a little handbook for it sounds like. It sounds like it's a lot of fun too, and I love a reposition thing. That's the stuff that sticks. Most companies that worked in the past two I feel like, especially if you're larger, you struggle with this Um. One of the very interesting things that happened here I opened sense a couple of years ago there was a survey that went out. How do you talk about what it is that we do? Reading the key findings, it was it was actually almost Um. It was very eye opening to realize that every single person is telling this story in their own way and it just does not like it does not resonated, not a single dread. That, I think, was probably one of the best things that we noticed, like how do we get everyone on the same page? Was That survey to your your internal people, or was it your customers? Interesting? So it's so another cool thing that we do with I love the idea of internal and we need to try that. We haven't done that yet, but we asked that same question to our customers. So just kind of a regular touch point, you get another feedback leap. We asked them how they would describe hatchworks to a friend or colleague, and the way you hear somebody else describe your company is like super insightful and it's funny like different customers will describe you in different ways, which also kind of helps you kind of hone in in your I c p. like you know people that are really like, you know, have an awesome answer, excited about you, tell us awesome story, like there's there's value there, right. So well, yeah, it's it's really neat. I just wrote that down because I planned to like all right, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna try it on the internal side. I want to say, yeah, so you do it on the internal we'll do the old planet enough for the external. Now, when you're when you're sending out a question like this, do you are you including this in the process? Um, that is already exists. Maybe a customer accept mean periodic which is out to your customers, or is this something that marketing is doing independent, like on their owners, their own initiatives? Yeah, it's a bit of boat. So we have some stuff that customers success leads. UH, we're starting to operationalize this, some of this and like when a new customer comes on, it's kind of like a why you bought survey, like understanding, like where were those trigger points? How do they move through their their moments of awareness? How did they find out about us? So understanding, that is a big piece of it. Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. This is a great conversation of learning so much. So, Um, let's focus a little bit on you and your career. I know. So how long have you been at hatchworks and what were you doing pired to hatchworks? Yeah, I was. I've been at hatchworks. Maybe four years now. I've had a weird kind of journey. I started in analytics to product marketing, to product like actually building products, to strategy to marketing. So I've had this kind of like weird journey through different areas. I think that's where, like, I see that connection point between strategy, product and marketing, and strategy is that glue between marketing and products. In my eyes, like they have to be aligned and on the same page. That's what I think. Product marketers are super valuable people in the Organization for that reason too. And would you say that's where, Um, most of the companies today's struggle, especially it's your SASS business, if you've got your own if you're building out your own products? where, where do you see the biggest missed opportunities for Chech brands and for larger and smaller companies and actually achieving that alignment between marketing and product teams? Yeah, I think the big piece goes down to the core of your strategy and understand standing what strategy is. Like that conversation we were just having, like so many companies don't really at the core understand what what strategy is. So that's a big piece of it, and then the user research side of it is is so critical to like actually going and talking to your customers using those feedback loops. That's the most important thing to me and that that really helps can act. You know, product...

...and marketing they need to be kind of in lock step. That's why I kind of like small, self sustaining teams. It's tough when you get very large that that's like a whole another ball of wax. But yeah, it's nice when you have smaller teams that, uh, they're they're not playing just a single role within a team. You know, they're kind of cross functional in a sense, and then connection points are easier, if that makes sense. But you know, if, like, you just have this person just does you know, paid social like that's all they care about, you know, it's it's tough when you start to get their deep functional areas. That's where strategy becomes that much more important, that everybody is kind of aligned to it. Another thing that I'm now starting to think but when you think of brand right as a marketer, I think marketers are the shepherds of the brand. But if there's a product to you building the product right, especially if there's multiple different products. At what point is it a shared Um actively, you know, to build out the brand strategy and the cool of the company? Is that something that you think, you feel that that marketers should be leading, or is it hand goes hand in hand with the people who are building the product and the engineering team? Yeah, I feel like brand is still owned by marketing. But but your brand again has to tie back to your your strategy, like you know, and brand gets misconstrued so many times. It's like, you know, what's our our logo and our color, like that's that brand, right. You know, what do you stand for? What if people say, when they think about you, how would they describe you? What is your place in the market? And that's what we're working really hard now on the hatch tricks side, is building up our brand. What's our belief in terms of how we design and build software, the whole narrative around your shore, those are critical. But yeah, product has to be looped into that, because if you have this brand that stands out here but it doesn't tie to the product that you have, that's like a watch, like there's something that the guys from base camp and rework talk about. It's uh, you want to have an at home product versus like an ad store product or where. I forget the exact wording, but basically you want a product that's also good after the customer gets at home and starts using it. FIRSTA product it looks shiny and awesome in the store and they get home that buyers remorse it's not, you know, doing all the things that marketing promised. Uh, so that's where your marketing product gotta be in lock step. Yeah, it's so funny that you mentioned that. I visualized, Um, I'm sure you remember this if you're ever at you know those festivals where they've got people who who are making, you know, those toys, that they would pull the thing at all and the helicopter would fly. Yeah, and then you would take it home would fly or it breaks in like two seconds. Totally breaks because you cannot. They learned how to use it. It was like a specially with the skill that the sales people have practiced, and now they're selling it to common folk who go home all the remember we were kids and we're like it's broken, it doesn't work, and my parents were trying to figure out how to use it too, and it was just always such a disappointing experience. It's completely lost all trust. Every time we would go to a festival or we would see people of the streets selling these fun toys and you know it would not work once. Yeah, I can sympathize that. I got a six year old daughter, so I can definitely simp the key thing you mentioned there is trust. Like, at the end of the day, trust is the best like marketing, you have, like if somebody trust you, they'll buy from you. If somebody trust you, they'll they'll recommend you to other people. Especially in our business. It's it's really based on trust. One of our four values is around, you know, creating raving fans of our customers and our people. But if we do that, that's that's what's building trust. I mean that's that's at the core of business. Is What I've learned. If you break trust, I mean anything in life, relationships, friends, whatever, you know, it kills it, and I love that you said it's it. That's one for principle. That is common everywhere, whether it's work, customers, your team, you do as the director, you, as you know, the head...

...of your marketing team to your team, Um and vice versa. You mentioned that you've had a lot of experience working in analytics, in Product Marketing, leading teams, working within a team. What would you say in your career is the greatest lesson that you have learned or the greatest lesson that is been the hardest to unlearn? Oh my gosh, that's a that's a really good question, I think, and you kind of touched on this earlier, simple is better and you can you kind of go through this learning curve where you're learning something new, like it seems crazy complex, all of that, like it's just really difficult and then once you get it it's like it's it's simple and you can dump it down into like simple terms. Once you can take something from complex to simple, like you've mastered it in my mind, and that's I don't know, just that the learning journey is a big piece. I think being a continuous learner, always being open to new things, has really helped me in my career, just being curious. That's kind of where why I think I've navigated to different area is because I'm you know, did analytics get interest super product and marketing and strategy. So I've kind of weaved around different things and it's like it's like building out a puzzle, like, I don't know, like the Super Mario Brothers back in the day. There's like the map on the video game. It was all clouded and so you like reach the level, it's like you're you're building out the map as you go in your mind. Yeah, yeah, and I love that and I love Super Mario Brothers. Another thing that you kind of mentioned is you focus now a lot on simplicity. It's been something that's been difficult for most people to learn right and now at the stage that you're at, in the role that you are in and trying to build out the rest of the Hash works marketing function. And what would you say is a key to success where you're at to date and how other marketers could probably get there? Yeah, I think the key to success is having your team aligned against the common purpose. Is a big thing. Like I mentioned, we work in kind of a two week sprint model, so kind of having your your ways of working established has really helped us. So we kind of have this this nice cadence of how we work, how we interact with each other, how we deliver. That's that's a big kind of foundational piece and again, just being aligned on. What's your strategy and what is your what is your purpose in the organization? Right like, at the end of the day, marketing, we're trying to build, build awareness and, you know, like Chris Water, you know, create demand, captured demand at the end of the day, and ultimately drive revenue for the business. Ye, how are you guys specifically creating and tapturing demand at passworks? I think that's the piece we're starting to grow into, like the capture side. You know, there's some basic stuff there with like review sites that were on. That's kind of an easy people for like environment ready to buy, making sure we're present there from an SEO standpoint again, kind of, you know, the basics. The creation of demand is the area we're starting to get deeper into. So we want to start telling our story, telling our narratives, leveraging more video content too. It's just easier to consume, like what we're doing right now. Pod testing is another kind of way to kind of, you know, get our name out there. So that's the area that we're starting to get deeper into. It's I mean it's the harder it's the harder piece of it, but it's the more valuable piece in my mind, if you can actually create demand, what channels would you say have been most most effective for you guys for the work that you're doing at this stage? Yes, so linkedin is a big place for us. A lot of our buyers are on Linkedin. G Two clutch is another review type site. So those we see a lot of traffic, and I mean really are our customers are the best. Like word of mouth referrals. That gets overlooked, like talking to your existing customers. There's always tons of opportunity within existing customers that already trust you. You already work with Um. That's another area I think that gets overlooked a lot. Oh Oh, it totally does. When you think about even chasing and creating you demand, you forget that, especially if you are within larger companies. You may not have penetrated other, you know, departments and especial you have a product...

...that actually makes sense for the whole team. Um Easier to get into right because you've already been vetted by their if you're tech product, you've been vetted by their I t team. You've already got users. It's the easiest next step to just continue to get your foot in the door Um. When I think most marketers think about even strategy and building out their tactics, they think about the shining ing channels, Tiktok, right, exactly. Yeah, TIKTOK's fun, but it's it's and you know, there's an interesting thing about Tiktok. I mean it's a channel at the end of the day, but it is more blue ocean, like you know, there's not as many competitors there, but there's starting to be a huge audience there that's uosing Tiktok. Like there is a a status all. The other day, I think it was gen Z, how they search when they when they go to search, they prefer Tiktok over Google it out, which was just like mind blowing to me. Like, if they're going to go try to find something, they search on tiktok versus Google. So, like there there are a lot of underlying thing is there that are super interesting. But again, it's a channel. It's a channel versus like your strategy. Your strategy isn't go do TIKTOK. That's a way to execute on your strategy. Yeah, so what's really interesting about Tiktoks to you? Recently, so I had I dowbtloaded that like a year like, I guess during Covid when everyone else did, and I actually downloaded there with the purpose of a I don't want to be like a dinosaur marketer. Might as well try to figure out the world is added. And I remember in the beginning it was I was so weird it out by this, this whole of your world, and I remember the more and more time I spent in Tiktok, the more my even my perspective changed from wow, this is weird too, oh my God, this is so cool. Now you're starting to see, especially with brands, going on to Tiktok. One of the one of the things that I've recently noticed is it used to people used to focus on trends and the moment you either latched onto that trend train or stunt, it's gone. You cannot catch that train after now I believe tick talk is investing more time even a s C o. So when you're saying people are starching for things, for marketers or product teams or any brand who wants to to include their stuff on there, they can start leveraging basic s c o principles in Tiktok and they're going to be found a lot faster than if they want the trend route, because the trend route is, I think, slowly going to be behind us and and it's going to be the same as you see on Google and just search in general. I thought it was super interesting, but yeah, I mean Gen Z is changing the world for the rest of us. Yeah, and I mean like you need platform like facebook started out with college kids, like every everything kind of had their niche and that's why they were successful. You know, if you think about it, they focused in the specific niche and then expanded from there, like finding a market that is small enough to win but big enough to matter, but right that all those groups like these huge things. I think TIKTOK's at that inflection point where you know it's getting past just the the APP where people do crazy dances on it or whatever it is. Right, it's gonna it's gonna become very much a mainstream I can already is yeah, oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, it's the only other APP I said most time on if if I'm not on Linkedin. Um, now just to book up a little bit on and I mentioned, we're gonna do some rapid fire questions. We got some questions here, then I can give you a Friday bapay. Tried to answer them quickly. I always say this and we people will always send up taking time, so you're allowed to take time. Okay. What is your favorite B two B brand? Why? And what's your favorite brand, and why? So two brands were killing it. B B B TWOC. Yeah, Metadata just everything they're doing on how they're doing demand creation, like that team is just awesome. On the B Two C side, would probably say Canada. I guess that qualifies as B Two c right. Can See, I've known about them for a while and just started using them recently and just their user experience to actually get in there and do it is just super simple and it gets back to use your research. Like they they nailed it. Oh, they totally did. I love both. What made you...

...smile today? What made me smile? UH, seeing my my daughter come home from school. Yeah, I love that. What is your spirit fruit? Spirit fruit? Um, banana. I have no other good reason besides I like bananas. I don't know, but bananas a daily versatility. Um. What's your favorite drink? Beverage? I'd say an old fashioned is my favorite. I don't know if alcoholic drink is what you're going for, but alcoholic coffee? Yeah, I love that. Love, Love, love. Um, what is your pet? Peeve pet peevee. Meetings, meetings, meetings without purpose. I'll say that like when somebody puts a meeting on there there's no clear gender, no clear purpose and they took an hour of time to do it with ten other people. This is me off. That is a good one. That is a good one. I've been guilty of that. If you could pick what superpower, what would you choose? Read minds. Back to the user research side of things. Oh, that is a really good one. Um, best way to wind down. Wind Down Watch TIKTOK with my wife. I love that absolutely. All that. What are you most productive when I have the least distractions? I thought I used to be a morning person, but I found it if I had wherever I have the least distractions, that could be nighttime, whatever. That that works the best. Yeah, that's a that's a very good one. How do you stay sane? Or what is keeping saying? If you are saying writing stuff down and being intentional with where I focus my time an the only way to do that. It's just by writing stuff down. I've found that would be really effective. And where do you write it down? Like a post, like physical or I've actually started to get this like journal thing, so I'm gonna start playing around that. I I'm not good writing by hand, but we'll see how that guess. All right, that's one thing you cannot live without. I was gonna say myself. Of It probably my family. That's that's the big one. Yeah, family. This good cell phone is a good second best thing. Um, what's one book you? I see you have a bunch of books in the back. So what's one book you would recommend to your audience and wife? Oh, mirrors, so many. Sticking with the strategy thing, maybe good strategy, bad strategy is a really good one, especially that marketers wouldn't really think about. So good strategy, bad strategy, or playing to one? Is there two really good strategy books? You know, I love that. Um, it's so interesting to you. When you mentioned earlier not a lot of people understand strategy. I remember when I was learning strategy I had no idea. I could not tell the difference between strategy tactics, between objectives goals. I just was so confused. I'm like, what is the difference. Say, yeah, I think it comes to the point where, if you're not if you're not really trying to delve and try to stick real, what is the difference? That's where you end up seeing, you know, that whole new world with everything's mixed and blurred together. Um, someone I spoke to had shared. So this is the first, I guess, Strategy Book that I read. They said, Hey, you want to learn about strategy, read Sun Zoo's art of war. Yeah, that is beautiful, simple and that will teach you everything that I need to so that book. I thought it would have been this big, thick book, but it's like a small kind of simple which like is perfectly like, yeah, you know, logical. What, however you want to put it, that it is, and the lessons in there, the stuff shared, is so transferable to all aspects of life, not just business, which is it's back to the whole like first principles type of, you know, approach and thinking yeah, yeah, totally. And last one. Who Do you think we should invite onto the show next? Oh, I would I would say my founder, branded pal, but if you're looking for somebody outside of the company, Andy, you already had gave it to. I think I try to big as somebody you haven't had yet. UH, PEP lie. If you can get him, he's amazing. They did in winter. That would be a good get. He would be great and we would actually love to have your founder because we're also doing founder stories. Okay,...

...cool, yeah, I'll connect you with him. He's gotta he can tell the the founder story like you know. you think of the Dave Kerhard read that recently found the brand. So he read that. So like he's got a really cool founder story. I think the narrative around near shore business are pivot. All of that's really cool. Definitely, we will absolutely appreciate the the interronet. You can set that up. Yeah, Um, but that was basically all you are. You are the fastest rapid fire response that I have gotten so far. Short, short feedback. I love it. Like you were thinking about it, so you probably already do no mind reading, because I mean, I'm pretty sure you were reading my mind when I was reading questions. Yeah, I don't know about that moment. Let's say say that's the case. But but thank you so much. That awesome to have you on the show. and where can our audience connect with you? Yeah, so, uh, find me on Linkedin Matt page. I don't know exactly what my linked is. Yeah, if I'd me there and on twitter, I kind of just used that as a scratch pad. It's Matt Page six eight. Um, I'm six FT eight. So that's another kind of thing. I stand out like a sore thumb. I think that's another thing. With strategy, right, it's like how can you stand out? That's the way to win. Like cleaked for me recently, like ever since I was a kid. I know, going off on like a tangent, but people have always come up to me unsolicited asking me how tall am I, commenting on my height. This is awful. I hated it, but it's it's amazing because I stood out for no other reason than my height. I attracted people to come talk to me. But it's the same thing with your business, like how do you stand out in the market? Don't look at your competition to do more of the same. Look at them to see how can we be different and stand out. Same exact principle. Yeah, that is so cool, and it's so, so cool that you're sixty. I've never spoken anyone to six eight. Yeah, I'm general giant. How about that? Definitely seem like a gentle John. So that that was awesome. But thank you so much, Matt. It was great to have you on the job. Thank you. Thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you would give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to strengthen their skills with tips and inspiration. You want to learn more about the company behind the show, head to open sense dot com. That's O P E N S E N S E dot Com. We'll catch you on the next episode.

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