Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 52 · 2 months ago

Set Yourself Apart to Get Your Dream Job with Maya Grossman

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Welcome to another exciting episode of Growth Marketing Camp. We’re shaking things up today as we chat career growth with the amazing Maya Grossman. After spending 15+ years as a marketer leading teams at some of the biggest tech behemoths like Microsoft and Google, she’s got some advice that you’ll want to hear.

Maya shares her best tips on setting yourself up for success, the importance of independent onboarding, and how to build meaningful relationships on day one. Plus, she shares her top 3 golden rules to apply when you land your dream job. Tune in and enjoy!

Welcome to growth marketing camp, or we sit down with our favorite marketers to do mystify growth and give you the insights to help turn your next campaign into a major success. Let's get into it. Hey, y'all, welcome to another exciting episode of Growth Marketing Camp, and, let me tell you, this one's such a tree. We're so thrilled to have this guest on, so much so that I have to give you a little biou before we kick it off. This amazing woman that we're talking to you today is a marketing executive, a speaker, a career coach, blogger, linkedin influenzer and a published author. Her book invaluable, has helped so many people skyrocket their careers. And in October two thousand and twenty one, after fifteen years of doing marketing in the corporate world, where she led teams at Microsoft and Google, she decided to make a big career change and start her own business. We are talking about the one and only Maya gross men. First off, congrats and starting Your Business and welcome to the show. Thank you so much, so excited to be here. Amazing. So I have to be selfish person and asked how are you feeling about the big move from San Francisco to Austin. Oh my gosh, I am so excited. I've never had my own place and we just bought our first house. So I'm honestly just so excited to have my own office and a backyard and just slow down a little bit and enjoy life nice and and I'm guessing you've been to Austin a few times. Yes, yes, I have, and I love it. It's so you know, the the culture of the food. It's just kind of happening right now. And we're going to live in a suburbs so a little bit outside of Austin but twenty minutes away from anything exciting. So I'm going to have the best of both worlds. Amazing, amazing. I haven't been to Austin. I just went to San Francisco recently and I was like man, it's such a fun city to live in. But I've also heard a couple of my friends are wanting to move to Austin and I think that I would probably move for the food as the number one reason, but also it's so nice having like your own space and your own home, and I hope that you're packing and your journey there is very smooth one and yeah, I wish you all the luck, at least with your move and specially with the Snee chapter in your life. I want to focus a little bit on this conversation, and I know we spoke a little bit before I hit record, but you've been speaking about career development and that's one of your passions and spend your side hustle for a while. I know when you later introduced you to us, it was all about like the value you are sharing with people who are starting their careers with marketers, you being a marketer yourself and now kind of just helping people level up their skills. I want to focus this conversation on that because it is so, so important. So I'm just going to kick it off with a question that I think everyone wants to know after that amazing intro that I shared about you. How did you do it? How did you get into companies like Google and Microsoft in these massive logos? How did you set yourself apart? Yeah, that's a great question, as actually get asked about that a lot. So here's the real answer. I work my butt off for ten years before I made it into Microsoft meeting. I built a reputation. I worked really hard, I delivered results and that way they actually reached out to me. So the real story is I was working for a PR and Social Media Agency and the team at Microsoft they were actually my clients and about five years later they remembered what a good job I did for them they actually reached out and invited me to interview for a specific role that they had and thought I would just be the best fit for. So that's how I got there. Funny Story. I got into Google through my manager at Microsoft after I did a really good job there and I had another role in between as a VP of marketing. My manager from Microsoft, someone I stayed in touch with and still is one of my best friends, he just introduced me to the team at Google because he said, I think you have...

...exactly what they need. Two conversations later, I had a I had a new job and a new project to work on. Wow, so that is that is even better than I thought, because I feel, like most people, when you think about like the Microsoft and the googles and just these are like tech vehemos, that there are just so many people trying to get at these companies. But you were working with them, you made an impact. They remembered you five years later. That is incredible and I and one of the questions down. I'm I have from that experiences. You know the work that you were doing. I know you say you you hustled and you delivered results. Do you think it's a combination of like hard skills that you had to learn in marketing, or a kind of a bit of both, like soft skills, at hard skills, and once you were in, what was what was the experience? Did you feel like? Did you feel ready for it? Oh, you never feel ready if you feel too ready or in the wrong position, because you won't have room to grow. But I think it's a combination of both. Right, you do need to be a good marketer, which means you do need to have some hard skills to understand people, strategy, some of the basics, but saft skills go a long way because you can stay in your lane, you can just do as you're told and you know if you do a good enough job, maybe you'll get a really is at the end of the year or maybe after a couple of years you'll be considered for a promotion. But if, instead, you think like an entrepreneur, you look at the bigger picture, you try to look outside of your very narrow job description and you think about how you can add value to the company. That's how you actually create those opportunities. That's how you grow faster than anyone else, that's how you level up and for me, that's how I built my reputation, because I wasn't just a person who gets things done. I was the person that goes above and beyond, and my employers wanted that and other companies wanted that, which is why eventually they reached out to me. Yeah, that I feel like it's still so, so important going above and beyond, and I know you mentioned that a couple of times now. So just curious, when you're taking on these roles and you aren't going above and beyond, how are you balancing? Like, where do you put an end to your day right and avoid that burn now, because, especially most people as ambitious as you, and that's the one thing, specially now we're working remote. Where is that end and where do you decide, like this is enough for today or, you know, these goals that I have, should they be a little bit far off? Or you know, people who want to experience growth much faster, they end up just burning themselves out. How did you do that? Yeah, so there's a big difference between doing more work and doing more of the work that actually moves the needle. But if you really need to understand the difference. So I'm not telling people just say yes to everything you know, spend sixteen hour days. That's usually not how you get ahead. It can help you in the very, very beginning if you're just starting to really hone in your skills, and even that is not sustainable. So I would say you really need to understand what matters, what's going to have a real impact and what's not. And there are two ways for you to do that. One, your own job description, your own goals. What is the main thing that you need to accomplish that? If you do, you will be successful. Number two, ask yourself the same question about your manager. What is your manager trying to achieve? What is their main goal and how can you contribute to that? And everything you do should level up to those two goals. Anything that doesn't support them you're going to need to try and remove off of your to do list. And I know that it sounds really scary and you know, but but I'm supposed to do everything. Let me tell you a secret. You don't. I actually ran this experiment because I had the same feeling right I felt like I had too much on my plate. I wanted to do the important things, but hey, I also had like twenty other things that I had to get done. So I had this experiment. I decided to remove...

...twenty percent of my workload. So I made a list, I prioritized everything, I took out the bottom twenty percent and then I waited. Do you know what happened? And no, suppose absolutely nothing. Nothing happened. Those tasks were just not important. They were not needle movers. No one cared and I was able to create a little bit more time to focus on the important things. Now, sometimes at the beginning you won't immediately have that balance right. You want to start doing a little bit more and then slowly reduce some of the workload of the things that you don't need. So or maybe a little bit time and between where you work longer days. But that's not the goal. The goal is just to focus on outcomes and that outputs. No, I no, I absolutely love that and I think I was also one of the people in my career where I became like a yes woman all the time, like if someone's like hey, jazz, this needs to get done, saying no early on, especially because I started off my career all I branched off and started doing contracting and freelancing, and it's like you just need to just make the client happy, you know, the more you say yes, the more projects you get. So, shifting from that, then I was working full time on a team. It was that same mentality that I had, which actually is so crippling because you end up spending so much personal time trying to get through everything. Recently we introduced okay ours in our company, which now it's at least easier to balance our priorities and it's easier to say no, especially if you're not comfortable doing that, but it is. It is extremely important. The fact that you know, the twenty percent didn't matter to you. I absolutely love that you shared that, because that is such a good way to do it if you don't have other processes in place. When you did start in these roles and you had this kind of new new journey and this in your leading this new team, how did you, how do you suggest other people make an impact in a brand new role, new company, new team, especially for the first like three months. Yeah, so I love the first thirty and even ninety days because it's almost like with with dating and networking. You make a really strong first impression and to me it's important to make a really good one. So it's a combination of tactics and strategy. What I usually recommend that you do is that you actually spend time before you even get started and do what I call Independent on boarding. So don't wait for the company to actually give view information. Do Your own research, go really, really deep, understand the company, the product, the audience. I mean, if it's a public company, goal, listen to earning goals, if you know do you have information on social if you can research some of the executives, go really deep. I usually spend probably ten to fifteen hours learning about a company, and this is just when I interview. Forget about actually working for them. Then I spend a lot more time. And here's why there's a huge difference. If you get in your first day and you have better questions because you already have the context, you already have the information. That set you apart, because then you're the person who can hit the ground running and it doesn't take that much out of you. Right you're going to have to learn about the company anyway. It's just a matter of spending a few days in advance instead of just waiting for the company to give you, you know, the information that you're looking for. Number two, you want to build relationships from day one. You really want to know not just your team, but who are some of the other people at the company who are stakeholders that are going to work with and start really building that network and start without an agenda. Just get to know people, try and have like a really fun fifteen minutes conversation, understand who they are, what they care about from a professional perspective so that later on you can actually figure out how to add value to them or how to convince...

...them if you need to get their buying or approval for for anything. And that's one of the things that people neglect the most, and I'm guilty of that. For years I did not. I was like, I'm just going to work, I'm going to keep my head down, I'm going to work, I'm going to work the hardest and that's going to fix everything. That's not the case. People move companies. You really need to have people around you who know you are, know what you can do and are going to have your back, and you want to start as early as possible, and specifically as a marketer. The reason I love this is because if you're going to have to build a brand, if you're going to need to understand the product, you really want to know what everyone at the company thinks. Yes, you definitely want to know what the CEO thinks, over, your VP of marketing thinks, but what about the engineer? What about the team at HR? I actually make it a habit to interview everyone about the brand and about the product, because it gives me amazing insights even before I go and talk to customers. So we said Independent on boarding, we said building some sort of network. You have to look at the numbers, the data, whatever is available. You really need to understand where you're at, assess what's working what's not working, and that's going to help you find a couple of quick wins. Now, yes, you definitely want to think more strategically. Yes, you probably want to think long term, but again, you're you're trying to make a real impact in the first ninety days. So I always look for like one quick win. What something simple? It can be a process that you can introduce to the team that's going to improve, you know, productivity. It can be, you know, updating the blog. It can be launching a podcast. In my previous company that was the first thing I did. First Ninety days we had a podcast up and running, because I believe that's going to be our best marketing channel, and it kind of was. So just making sure that you hit all three but at the same time start thinking more strategically, more long term, so that at the end of those ninety days you might actually have a strategy for the next quarter or for the next year. Now I so I absolutely love that. And you know what's interesting? Why I also mentioned that is I'm a part of different marketing flat communities and that question continues to come up so much that there's been debates underneath like facebook groups and threads where people are saying, I've just gotten hired at this role, I'm taking on, I'm leading, you know, the marketing at this company. How much do I go in and change because you feel like they've just hired me, I have to go in and change everything because they're looking for someone to stick set and the conversations. You know underneath that post is, hey, you know, you got to go in with the glass half empty. You have to go in and understand and absorb the processes before you come in and change everything. One of the things that you mentioned that just sticks with me so much that absolutely love. The almost most people, I feel like neglect is they'll come in and they do their own due diligence, if they do right and they research and they understand Oky here the areas of improvement that I think they're coming in as an outsider. But one of the things you mentioned is interviewing the team, the engineers, not just the marketers, the CEO, the HR right, the people who are working within the company. You not just your team, and also not just your customers, because that's another thing you would think is just top of the customers, but the brand just like you said, right, and encapsulates everyone, not just your customers, not your marketing team, everybody. So absolutely love that and also having that icebreaker, you know, talking to people, just building a relationship instead of just talking work. I used to also feel early in my career that hey, if I just started, I don't want to come off as just like fooling around. Let's just focus on work. So those first few conversations they're a little bit more stiff because you don't end up, you know, breaking through to people and they don't see your personality. So that formality is there, but I feel like, as for the formality, the real you know, people's opinions come out and their real...

...personalities come out and then you're more comfortable and so are they. So I love that you mentioned those three points. I will definitely hold onto them and I think most people need to understand that, especially when you're early in your career and you think that that's not the right way to do it. But I guess there isn't right. There is no single way to do it. Yeah, of course, and I tried different things throughout my career and you know, also depends on their circumstances. Right. Sometimes you come in and things are working, so you have more time to think, you know, strategically, and come up with creative ideas. Sometimes everything is on fire, you have to stop and you just just make really quick decisions. So that's going to be a completely different approach. Yeah, I know, I love that. Another thing you mentioned that I want you to talk to on again. I'm you mentioned our thoughts are not facts. How do you battle negative thoughts and tell me more about that. Yeah, well, that obviously goes back to imposter syndrome, and the more I read and learn about at the more I realize it's everywhere. It has nothing to do with seniority. You and I were talking just before. You're a director, I was a VP, and we still have those feelings. We still think maybe I'm not good enough, or someone's gonna find out that they made a mistake and they're going to kick me out, and that has a lot to do with our brain and our psyche, because here's what's happened. Our brain wants to protect us. So if we're trying to do something new, something we've never done before, it's kind of scary and our brain thinks, oh, no, danger, something terrible can happen here, so it tries to stop us. And the way that our brain tries to stop us as by telling US stories that are going to keep us in place. And the thing is, as I mentioned, thoughts are not facts, they're just stories that we tell ourselves. And what I really like to do is I like to kind of play detective and prove to myself that my thoughts are not facts, and the way to do that you're going to write down what you're thinking. So, for example, you know, it's my first day as a VP. I'm terrified, I think you know, what am I doing here? I'm probably not the right person. So I would sit down and ask myself, okay, I think I'm not the right person. Awesome. Why did someone tell me I wasn't the right person? No, okay, did something happen in the interview process that is actually making me question myself? None, that really they kind of liked me. Awesome. Do I genuinely believe that every single person in that company, including the CEO who hired me, or idiots? Am I that good of a liar? Probably not. And when I tell myself no, no, no, I realize, hey, that's probably not the right story, and that gives you an opportunity to tell yourself a better story. So, you know what, I've never done this before. You're right, I am probably not great yet, and that's the biggest difference. I'm not ready yet. Awesome, but I got this job and I have an opportunity to learn on the go and that's what I'm going to do. So it's just a matter of time. So Great, today I'm not feeling amazing. Tomorrow will be better, the next day will be even better. And that was true right a couple of weeks into the role. I felt more confident, I knew what was going on, I had more information and I was able to make better decisions. And that is what happens every single time when we tell ourselves that story, we can just stop, change the narrative, turn it into something that is more empowering instead of something that is just keeping us back. That's coming from partial experience, because I had that. I had to make that shift and had to change the narrative that even I tell myself. And I think it wasn't until you speak to other people who are at different levels of their career and you start to feel like, hey, it's not just me, and I think that shared experience and that shared feeling that here's my idol and here someone then so you, for example, when...

...you share that, I'm like wow, thank you. Know, everyone experience that at different levels of their career. Doesn't matter if you're a marketer, if you're working in something else. It is just slowing down, enjoying the process and taking it in day by day, versus thinking that you have to all of a sudden come in and make all these big changes. Also, one of the things you mentioned I love is Hey, you know, you're basically telling yourself all these other people believed in me. Are They, you know, idiots for believing me? Obviously they're not. And and I love that. I think that's such a funny and kind of practical way to think about it too, if you just kind of want to get out of your head, because when you mention it, I'm like, yeah, dull better. So true. And and here's the thing. We are supposed to suck. Yeah, that's the whole point of growth, that is the point of learning. The price of admission is that you have to suck a little bit at the beginning. I suck that everything that I did for the first time, the first time I did a workshop, not only was a terrible I forgot to charge my computer and it died halfway through. I mean how embarrassing? Does that mean that I need to stop never do a workshop again? No, heck, I did thirty more and I got really good at it for some reason. Maybe it's instagram. The world we live in, we think we need to be perfect them to get go, but that is not true. So I actually encourage people to suck and I give them permission by reminding them, kind of like with baseball. You have you have three strikes, right, you get to try a couple of times before you declare that you know you're not good, you should probably never do it again. If I decided to quit because I sucked, I wouldn't have a book right now, because the first draft, let me tell you, it was not great. And I remember writing the first couple of chapters. I let my husband read them, and my husband is usually my biggest cheerleader and he said, Babe, I love you, this is not good. And I did the same thing again. I rewrote them and I shared them with a couple of people and they still gave me feedback because it wasn't, you know, perfect yet. And I did it over and over again. But then, you know, I was able to finish the book. It was a best seller and I have thousands of people around the world who read it and, you know, are better for it. But what if I quit just because I sucked the first time? None of that would have happened. Yeah, no, that is so true, and I love them. You asked your husband for that, because I also am a firm believer like having some trust stood advisors, people that are just tell you without feeling like your feelings are going to get her. And for me, you know, that's also like my family and my husband. I'll I'll ask him, Hey, what do you think of this? And these people they know they can be brutally honest and I know will not take it personally compared to like you know, obviously there's a bit of ego when you ask someone else that you work with. But I love that you did publish the book. I love that you preached. You know, you have to Tuck in the beginning, because you know, we also forget first time we wrote a bike. We you know, first time you swim, by the way, I still can't swim.'s something first. First time a baby tries to walk. Do Not Tell our children, oh, you're not going to be good at it, you should probably cool for the rest of your life. No, that's ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, hundred percent, and and I think the older we get, the more we forget that. We forget where we came from and how we made it to where we are. So I love that you mentioned that. What do you think, at this point in your career, and now you're doing this right, you're sharing your experience with other people, were are the most valuable? If you have one, that would be amazing. The most valuable lesson that you've learned in your career that you think other people can apply to in their careers? Oh my gosh, there are so many. I think one piece of advice that really stayed with me, and it's going to sound very trivial, but it actually made a huge difference for me. That was my manager from Microsoft, and he said don't ask for permission, Ask for forgiveness. And the reason it was so important to me is because it's freed up my mind and set us staying boxed in the things I'm supposed to do,...

...the things I'm allowed to do. It allow me to think bigger, to get more creative and not to stop myself, you know, just because the circumstances will not allow something, or you know there's a rule at the company that you're not supposed to do that. Obviously you know you definitely need do some common sense. There are things you just can't do within the corporate world. But every time you can stretch the limits a little bit, it helps you grow, it helps the company grow, and that's exactly how you build that reputation that I mentioned at the beginning. That's exactly how you do a little bit more and give yourself the opportunity to kind of qualify yourself for the next role before you even have the opportunity to apply again. That's something that myself and you and I we're talking about before this conversation to is if there is a certain thing that you want to do but you're not you're not sure of it because you never tried it, how do you get into that? How you break out of your job description and how do you get involved in these other projects? And one of the things I said is hey like especially we we have the luxury, a lot of people do, of working there's so many startups and smaller teams and agile teams and they just thrive so much. If you're cross collaborating and you're interacting with other departments and you see you know there's in need, you have the bandwid bring it up, talk to them about it, and I think that also goes into the last thing you said. is so important to build those relationships with other people in your team, not just the more marketers in your team, right the engineering team, the HR, because then you can find these opportunities and then potentially insert yourself or bring up that conversation with your manager and say, Hey, this is something that interests me. Is it okay if I kind of get involved in this project? So I love that you said that and I think it is so, so important. What are the things that have inspired you to be successful a you know the journey that you're doing now. What are the things that are inspiring you to just keep going and that had inspired you throughout your career development? Yeah, so I did this exercise a couple of years ago. I think it was called the one word. So I went through this whole process to try and figure out what's the one thing that kind of defines me, right, what is my one thing? What makes me happy? Why am I working so hard? And I ended up with a word impact. And for me, you know, in my marketing days, that was making an impact on the company, on my team, making an impact on customers, just helping everyone really thrive in whatever it is they're doing, and today it's making an impact on people's careers and lives and knowing that I'm putting something out there that's helping people. And I think I didn't, I didn't have a word for it my entire career, but I do now and I think that's why I always wanted to do more and for me success. Yes, it's nice to have the titles, the salary. Don't get me wrong, I still work really hard to get those and I negotiated and fought for them, but the fun wears off really quickly and enjoying what you're doing and being able to do things that actually move then eatle that actually matter. I think that what really drove me all those years and I love that. I love that you stuck with one word to like that impact and focusing a rat, because just having that one thing ends up being the core of everything that you do and whatever you're confused, you can kind of fall back on that. So I love that you said that. What is one change that you would make, if you're looking back like in hindsight now in your career's one thing you would do differently? Oh my gosh, I probably won't do things differently because it got me to where I am today. But let's say I would very much like to understand having a growth mindset a lot earlier. I always believed in kind of my ability to do things, but in my s it was a lot harder. I had a lot more doubt. So if if I could have worked on my mindset a little bit earlier, I...

...might have gone even, you know, further in my career. But I really like where I am today. I was this is so funny. I was just talking to my husband the other day and I was like, I turned forty this year and I've never liked myself more. Like I'm at a good place. I like who I am, I like what I do and sometimes I wish I had that in my s because, yeah, self doubt was probably the main theme of my twenties. So I again love that too and looking back and my twentys. I was so funny because I was talking to a friend about this. To my personality and my focus and what I think is important has changed so much in these different milestones and I've had defining moments that I'm shifted and change my focus. And I'm also now at this point where you you pause and you think I'm at the place that I always wanted to be. I'm finally there, but you don't relish and enjoy that moment, because then you just you feel like go ovash. Now have to do x, Y Z, but you forget that over the last decade this is where you wanted to be and you don't celebrate it. It's just crazy. We we always do that. So, okay, I'm telling a lot of stories today, but a little over a decade ago I went to my first like personal development workshop and I wrote the Perfect Day. I wrote down what my life should look like ten years from from that date and what would be my dream and I wanted to live in California, preferably by the beach. I wanted to be the CMO of a Silicon Valley Startup, I wanted to marry my then boyfriend, now husband, and I wanted to, you know, beat us, the person who actually works out and does yoga and you know, things like that. At the time, I was living in a different continent, I was not even an executive, I had a boyfriend, a husband, and it was very difficult to convince me to get off the couch and actually work out ten years later, I check every single box and it took me five minutes. Ten Years of work and it took me five minutes to ask myself, okay, what's next? It's ridiculous. We have to celebrate the small and the big wins and sometimes, you know, just go out for drinks with a friend, have a fancied dinner, just do something to actually remind yourself that you worked really hard and you deserve everything that you have, because if we keep just chasing the next thing, in the next thing, there's no there's no end to it. And I'm not saying you shouldn't continue growing, you definitely should, but you want to enjoy the process as well. Yeah, I know this is so true when you think about it too, even as as are like society, people celebrate weddings, right, they celebrate NACHELORETTES. There's now even divorce, partisip and retirement. But these milestones where you spend most of like most people spend most of the life working, and then they're making these advancements. Now, at least on Linkedin, you'll see, like you know, the career celebration gift that keeps going around. But beyond that, I feel like most people still don't. You know, even if it's the smallest going for celebratory drinks with your friends and just celebrating smaller winds and actually actively celebrating with people, with your family. I feel like most people still don't do that. So I do love that and I love that you did that almost like manifestation exercise, because I even thought about doing that where I think, I don't even know what I would want at this point, because that's like ten years seems so especially how quickly life has been changing and you don't even know where're going to be in ten years. The perfect you did that and it probably took you, you know, ten twenty minutes to write it. Ten Years of hard, hard work and you're there and now you can kind of look back and realize, look at everything I accomplished. I love that you remembered that. I...

...love that you shared the story and I love that your shared with stories, because it, all the stuff is so, so important. Yeah, and Look The the vision change throughout the years. It didn't stay exactly the same, but I had a north star. So every time I had to make a decision, it was very easy for me to say yes or no, because the question was would it move me towards my goals? And as an example, when I worked for Microsoft, I actually had to make a decision. Do I stay with a company and maybe take a more senior role, or I had an opportunity to go work for a startup? And it's a very hard decision because those were two really good options. But then I ask myself, if I want to be the CMO of a Silicon Valley Startup, what would get me there faster? And the startup route was more likely to actually get me there, which made the decision a lot easier. And every time I was at a crossroads I asked myself the same question and it really helped guide me. And you know what, it's also okay if your destination change age, because your life change all the time, circumstances, the economy. You know, the important part is to actually ask yourself, to stop and ask yourself, what do I want? If it's still the same answer, great, you know, just continue with your strategy and if you know, something changed. It changed for me very recently. Right. I never wanted to be an entrepreneur. I kept saying, you know, I want to steady paycheck, I want to level up I want to make decisions, but I don't want to own the whole thing. But something changed in the last couple of years and that's why my strategy and my North Star changes well, and that's totally fine. You just need to be aware and ask yourself, you know, what do I really want? Now that you've kind of reached and you checked off all those boxes, I'm sure for you know, once you settle down in Austin, maybe you know you do that exercise again for the next ten years. For sure. After this conversation, I'm going to already put it down on my on my notepad care I'm going to make myself a list to because I'm old at this point where I'm like, okay, what's gonna Happen in the next five years? So I love that. You are obviously a huge, huge inspiration to a lot of people, men and women, people are in the early careers, people who are a bit later in their careers. I'm curious to know who are some of your role models, who are the people that inspire you that you think that we should all, you know, trying to search up and look at, because that is something that you know we all want to know and I think it also help us kind of get involved in their community as well well. I would say there are two types of inspiration for me. Some are, you know, just part of my community right that manager for Microsoft, my friend who just became a director. People would just do almost the impossible and set an example for me of the things I can aspire to. They just remind me that, you know, you, we can do whatever we want if we set our mind to it. So those are like my daily if reminders. When I think more of like influencers, recently I've been following Rachel Hollis a lot and I'm a huge fan of Jenna cutcher as well. So both entrepreneurs building their own empire and for me right now, this is the type of inspiration that I'm looking for. Yeah, those are probably two women I would highly recommend that you follow. Yeah, hundred percent, we definitely will. Will follow them and see if we can reach out them too, because I think besides having like a north story, it's always nice to have someone to kind of look up to, and the advice that you've shared and you continue to share on Linkedin it does help every single person who's following you and actually believes in you have the confidence to apply to their own life, and it also helps us to know that you know, you got you got people that you look up to as well, and so you know, at this sphase that we're at, what's the next where's next phase we're going to move into? But I absolutely appreciate all of the advice that you've shared. One more question related to markers again. What do you think is something that at marketers...

...who are starting off their careers or kind of in the new phase of their career, something that they should start doing that they're not and something that they should stop doing? Yeah, so I try to think about it like if I was starting right now, you know what would I what advice would it I give myself? And I think there would be two parts here. One, I would highly recommend that you choose a discipline to focus on, because within marketing, we both know they're like twenty seven thousand different options and specialities. Choose one. You're not going to have to marry it for life. You can make changes, but choose something that you can specialize in, because early on that's how you're going to get ahead. Number two, invest in the basics of marketing, copywriting, massive. If you can master copywriting, you could pretty much do anything within marketing. Understanding your customers. Always talk to your customers, understand where they're coming from, psychology, pain points and I would say, lastly, invest in understanding the numbers a little bit. You don't have to be like a Whiz, but you need to know how to look at information and turn it into insights and that will serve you throughout your career. No, I love that, and those are the three most important things that we you know, we're even using in small companies today. Write the copywriting, obviously right. That's so, so important and you don't realize, especially when you're starting, like you don't want to just get stuck in one thing, but every other know I've had many roles and then has been the most important thing and you can always improve your craft and get better and learn from all the other people out there talking to customers. And then the data. I think a lot of still you'll see marketers who are very, very technical and then they feel like hey, I need to I need to work on my copyring skills. You'll see the people who are who have some of those softer skills that feel a little intimidated by the data, but I think that, you know, one of the things you mentioned just touching on all three of them. Having a good balance is so important and something that's still practical enough where most, even tshape marketers, they can they can work on and specialized markers they can still work on. Old All three of those components. So we're kind of getting close to time. So I just kind of wanted to ask you what's next for you. I know you're moving to Austin. You've got this amazing book that you're still kind of actively promoting. What is part of your career journey? Were the next thing that you're looking to do? Yeah, so I'm also doing coaching and I just launched an online course for anyone who wants to level up in their career. And I think again, I think in terms of impact right so on, my goal is to impact a million people in the next ten years probably, and I'm still figuring out how to do that, but that's my driving force and that's what you'll probably see from me and we will definitely see it because we are hitting that little bell icon that I just discovered. Lindon has it. Yeah, it's awesome. It just it's crazy that I feel like on instagram and youtube that bell icon was everybody knew about it, but linkedin just very sneakily. Just you know it, share it it. So we're going to hit that belly kind of. We're going to follow you and all of the resources that you have, including this kind of your book and your career per and we're going to share it across our community. But absolutely appreciated you joining us today the conversation that you had with us before and during the recording of growth working camp. You are inspiration to our team for sure, and everybody else that you're following. So like nothing more than tons of gratitude and thanks from our community. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Yeah, it's been awesome. Thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, would love it if you would give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to give a little more inspiration for their next campaign. You want to learn more about the company behind the show, had to open sensecom. That's open se en Secom. Will catch you on the next episode.

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