Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 53 · 6 months ago

Growth Marketing Camp’s Happy Hour with Hillary Read


In this week’s episode of Growth Marketing Camp, Hillary Read, the VP of Marketing at WITHIN, joins us to share her thoughts on career, performance marketing, workplace culture, and yes, even a bit on NFTs.

Hillary talks about the milestone moments that helped her transition her early career as a writer to VP of Marketing and how the right opportunities at the right time make all the difference. She compares analog and digital marketing, performance and brand marketing, and why your marketing strategy should always aim for long-term.

If you stay until the end, you’ll learn some fun ways she’s getting her remote team interacting, her thoughts on the Metaverse, and where she gets her inspiration from. Grab a drink, sit back, and enjoy. If you love virtual happy hours, you’re gonna have a blast!

Welcome to growth marketing camp, or we sit down with our favorite marketers to do mystify growth and give you the insights to help turn your next campaign into a major success. Let's get into it. Hey, everybody, this is jazz binning, cohost of growth marketing camp. Welcome to this week's episode. I'm excited to introduce you to Hillary read, who is currently VP of marketing at the performance of branding firm within Hillary. Thanks so much for joining us. Oh, thank you for having me. Yeah, no, of course. I'm actually very excited for this conversation because I was doing a bit of digging into your background and I've got to say you've got a very impressive portfolio. You have more of the decative experience delivering marketing and communication strategies at leading brands and you've made a dent on many different industries. A few that stuck out to me that you actually also shared on your linkedin you have helped a lead marketing teams for a digital marketing agency expanded the mqls by fifteen hundred percent over a nine year tenure. You helped grow the company from five to fifty five million dollars in annual revenue. You've directed marketing efforts for e commerce and B to be for startup and have helped the company achieve two hundred percent in year over year growth. Right now you're at within so you know the right before we ended up hitting record, you shared a little bit about this performance branding methodology, which I really want to dig into, especially since you guys are using that as a raymark for managing your clients campaigns. But before I dig into all of that, talk to me about your career journey. Were the milestone moments of your life that helped get you to where you are today? Well, it's a little longer because I've been in I've been around for a while. So I actually started out in newspapers as a sports writer and sports copy editor, and I taught me a lot about messaging audiences and stuff, but none of it was digital. Was All anil. I was old. You know, you get a newspaper, you get in the morning, you think it up from my front step and you read it. So that that's changed pretty dramatically since I was in that business. But I went from newspapers to actually a stint as a college softball coach for a year, and then you just had to get out of New England. They grew up in New England. was there forever and thought, as I want to was somewhere else. I moved to San Francisco at an ECOMMERCE company called Mercantila, which is now, like many ecommerce companies in two thousand and five, when I joined them, is no longer. They were trying to be the next Amazon, but they there aren't many Amazon. So I worked in ECOMM until about two thousand and eight. It differ there, and anybody who worked in ECOMMERCE during the recession probably has some battle scars. And I certainly did join another ECOM Company for an in a few years. But the one of the people I met two thousand and eight was a gentleman need David Rednitski. He worked as eper of advertising at Orcantilla and when he left he went to go found a company called at the time it's PBC associates. Well, I joined him there after after my state in eat commerce, because I was recommending a friend and he's like you wanted to? I was like sure, I've always interested in in digital marketing, which at the time was basically Google and Yapping, like search marketing. Not a lot otherwise. Banner ads, the flashing band arounds you used to see on the sites and stuff. Yeah, facebook didn't have advertising at the time. This was eleven years ago, it feels like, just as the did. The dismal landscape has just the complexity, I think is you know, many, many, many factors. The opera was done. Platforms after you shouldn't privacy, and it's just it's just come to different. So I was at three key for nine years. That was amazing. Tons of growth there. I was in an ECOMMERCE start up for the kind of year in between positions that I joined with it this past March, so I've been up with then, like you said, for a couple months. Yeah, that's awesome and it's insane that even you forget about it. I feel like. I know you mentioned it's been eleven years since then, but I totally remember, like the Flash Advertising. I remember when most people will just read newspapers and just looking back in hindsight to think that this is how much marketing and just technology has changed in such a short period of time is actually insane. I have a quick question for you, especially because you...

...were working with newspapers and stuff before. Do you feel like the foundation of marketing has its consistent like it's stayed the same? The principles of it, it's just a medium, is really that have changed? Yeah, I mean I think the the speed, obviously, the way everything is. I mean you could read advertising like books from the facties we're actually talking about this the end the day. I've cut a few FOLLA examur. The idea of influencer marketing is not new. I mean you think of we these boxes right, like the the athletes that used to see on these boxes are like, you know, the Hollywood starts you'd see smoking their marlbers or camels or whatever. There's always been a form of influence of marketing. It's just now it's just it's so that the turnover and the feedback that you get in the data that you get the process really quickly optimized. That's a different playing field for sure, but like some of the some of the tenants, a good good story, a good hook. I think obviously people have a shorter attention span now than that and then they did when I was even in newspapers, but the idea of a paragraph that hooks you and it's you and makes you want to read. The rest of the story is that it's very similar for an ad real like okay, the first three seconds have to haul you in, or on facebook the first second, something like that. Like, yeah, like you said, I'm in. The tenants are the same. It's just I think the stakes are a little higher because the you know, things are so congested and costs on facebook and Google or so high and things are just faster there in the avalve cooker. Even things like brandulation. I'm in. The privacy law is coming down like they're when they apple I was fourteen, dropped all of a sudden people under reemet the way they were doing advertising. It's definitely like built on the same foundations, I think. But yeah, it's the IT's a different game for sure. Yeah, yeah, and and you're so right about that. And I feel like most people forget when they think about when I think about influencer marketing specially, I'm thinking about like Instagram, I'm thinking about even the microinfluencers people are starting to tap into on Linkedin, for be to be. But it really is we're just kind of recycling trends that have existed for for decades and decades, but no you definitely make a good point there. You are now at with in and you've been there again, like I said, a couple of months. Why did you make them move to within and what have you been doing since then and what is your focus, I guess, for the next like two months at within? And Yeah, so I'll be a little bit about what you guys do. What is within within is it's performance branding agency. We don't like to call ourselves an agency because we really, like a lot of agencies say, we really try to get into client accounts and via a business partner and align ourselves with whatever it is they want to achieve. US A business, not necessarily our own PPIS. So you know, it's an agency by any other need, but we like to think of ourselves as partner's first. I have a good friend, aid to Pali, who's ahead of sem within and she and I work together at three Q as well. When I was at three que back in the day and she said, Hey, do you do you want a new job? Kept styllic. Yeah, my getting ECOMER started was going okay, but you know startups can be under rocky. You and I was looking for something a little still high growth, but a little less starpy, and so I checked out with then and the performance branding angle is something that really stood out to me as differentiated. where, you know, you see a lot of YOU CANC websites, no matter how big they are. You could go to like a mercle t nuity, tiny little shop, you could get every any one of them, the holding companies, and you're going to see messaging. It's very it may sound a little different, but people are all talking about generally the same thing. We're with within it's they were really taking aim at the the silos of performance and branding, which has been a really big issue for, I would say, the last like six or seven years, and it came to like and covid big time because a lot of companies were like, okay, we have to we have to make sure our numbers are up. They don't want to lose people. We have to keep performance, we have to keep the rub you coming, in especially short term, because nobody knew it was going to happen a long term with Covid, landscapes to the the what it always been a pretty intense focus on performance anyway, really got elightened, which left very little room for branding. So a top of funnel activity things like that. So you saw a lot of brands kind of hopper down, and I think that's one of the reasons that in a recession, even in two thousand and eight, you can look back and say a lot of the companies that had in good ideas and we're brave enough to like really invest in them came out of that time. You're looking at,... know, a company like a Netflix. There's a lot of like softwares of service companies that came out at that time. It was companies that were like we see an opening. Other companies are pulling back, so we have a little bit of room for playing in it, and that something like that happened a little bit with covid or. Companies are really hot, prying down and saying we have to spend money. That results in dollars immediately, where if companies had loved you to look outside of that, the top of the funnel was open for taking. So what with them does that's coming around is saying, like you don't have to say here's here's branding and here's performance. Good ads and good campaign should be both at the same time. Creative. Should make you like feel away about a brand and also want to buy. They're showing you it doesn't have to be one in the other and the budgets don't have to cannibalize each other. The bolts should be aligned at not necessarily sideload. So we what we say is we can do that for you. Some of the things we look at that are actually differentiated. I think it might be a focus on LTV. So it's still performance, but will tell clients straight up like look, if you come to work with us, you may see a dip in immediate performance, but if you give us the wrong weight for sixty eight months you're going to see like it's not going to be a growth up. The kind of flattens out. It's going to start here and then and then hop to stick up, because what we're looking at is identifying the audience segments that are going to spend the most money in the long term. They may be more expensive up front, they may be up a little start to act, but it's like like if you were selling a costco membership, you wouldn't want to hit the like Frat Guy who has the job of going to Costco for the PRAP party like once a year. You'd want to hit like the dad with the soccer team and back saying, okay, I got to get coopres sons once a week for, you know, forever. So it's a matter of doing those audiences saying yeah, we're going to pay a little bit more. Form performance may like our I may look a little worse, and will in the short term, but like we have a plan for long term. So that's the one differentiate our very few agencies talk about L TV up promptly thought, and another is incremental bidding. So basically, like you know, there was a whole I want to say like maybe five or six years ago. You hear a lot about retargeting of ton about retargeting. The thing is it was hard to tell people weren't really measuring like would those people have bought anyway if you didn't serve them at second, third and fourth time? And up it lads a call that. A lot of brands of contact that. But we've taken that that like to an extreme and saying every interaction has to drive me fro mental value. We don't want to spend dollars where it's like we're just encouraging a type of behavior that was going to happen anyway or may never have, and so we want to make sure that, like and we've got technology tuned into the bidding where, okay, like, we could do this up five times on facebook and spend this but if we did it three times of facebook, once in Instagram, once on Tick Tock, it's actually going to relliver a better result. So like that, that sense of macrimental bidding is really trying to get value from every single negment, which I was just really impressed by the concept. Yeah, I love both of the the two different jis you mentioned in one of the things that really stuck out to me that you just recently mentioned. It sounds like most of the companies that were most successful were the ones who really set themselves apart during covid because that's also that was a time where the pressure was on. And now, I think if you're if you're reading especially on linkedin right now, there's a lot of debate between performance, verse branding and People Not Understanding what they should invest most of their resources and especially like things are getting a little bit more costly, it's much harder to figure out how to get your buyers even here. How do you guys differentiate. What do you think are like the key things that differentiate between performance and then branding? And you mentioned that at within you guys try to prioritize balancing both. Yeah, exactly. So I think if you look a performance, like defining exactly what that is, I think a lot of people just say the word leave it there. Yeah, where we say it's long term, like like time value performance, like how much, how much you going to get from a customer over a year or two years, not like what is my report to the exact kind look like a month? And in Covid I think there's a bunch of...

CIA going on right that have to be. People were worried, like, you know, can I keep my team? Can I keep my budget? We have to show performance like week over a week, month of the month. But we're saying is like you have to take a little bit of longer to review, especially because things like facebook and Google or so expensive now and that that's not going anywhere. They're not going to get any less expensive. When the branding piece, it's like you don't have to just evoke like an emotion that that's great. And of course there's things like influnts of marketing that aren't necessarily going to turn and direct sales immediately, but we're trying to not shorten the phone. We're trying to say, like look, this all contributes and we can show how each touch point contributes to conversions at the end of it. Yeah, and the thing about bringing that I think you're not going to see video right like you're not going to say, okay, performance is different, but now we're going to scale like that, you know, but we're all the customers. If you completely turned off the Faucet for the fall on top of the fallow awareness and stuff in covid now you're pool is the exact same size it always was, the CEPAS are the exact same or maybe a little more than they were, whereas if you're bringing a lot of new people into the funnel and they knew to look for you and the repeat buyers and, like you know, you've got a retention program in place, the acquisition cops for those is going to draw so like that investment is going to come through at the end. It's just a matter of being to connect the dots, and a lot, a lot of companies aren't good at that yet. Still, after, like you know, five, six seven years, that being a proposed for for the companies that are kind of hiring you guys right working with within. You mentioned you guys have more of a partner relationship. Who is your ideal customer? What does that company look like that would benefit the most from kind of partnering with you guys. We love companies who care about the rand obviously value great creative like our creative team is. I mean we have over a hunder people on our creative team for a corner person company. That's like new for me. It's like what, I'm never going to hurt of that an agency. They do incredible work. The creative testing involved in it is like the iterations, the ideas, the concepts to bring it to life. Like we really want to partner with brands who are want to get in there with us, whether it's like hey, we have this like half edit this asset, like how do you make a great series of adds out of it, or hey, come to us with ideas, brains are willing and open to like, you know, work with us on great creative campaigns and brands who aren't like just focus on next week, just focused on next month, but have a longer term play. There's the kind of rands who do bold. Yeah, yeah, I just noticed on you guys, as Linkedin, you had shared that you recently partnered with north face. Is that something that which? Well, I'm like, Hey, I love North base. I saw there was lots of noise underneath that project like that right, and it with a brand like that is is there something different that you guys are having to do with with most like ecommerce and BTC, or is it principles are pretty much the same. I mean they're the same and there's obviously a level of excitement. You you know, with a brand la Mar face, it's so recognized and so Blod it you just you want to make sure you're helping a dance the brand, but you already get such an incredible beast that it's you don't have to reinvent anything and you just have to make sure that their their values are kind of the work and they have great guidance rates. They always have like we you know, you think of brands like Patagonia or just a competitor, but the north face like these are ends of really care about the environment, which is broad great thing to be able to put forward. They just have really quality stuff. It's like, as a marketer you want to work with brands that kind of like ring true and even though I don't work with them directly, it's just like, Oh my God, we get to work with this incredible brand. It's so great. Like the the enthusiasm met within when we sign them was just it was off the charts. Yeah, yeah, I know, I can imagine. Even I got excited. So like Hey, this is gonna be a good kittle about yeah, you mentioned, like you guys, is design team. How we is the team at within structure, the marketing team, specifically our marketing team. So we have a bunch of really, really talented content blators. We have some really talented designers who work to make sure that the brand name is aligned with with the within. Branding doesn't work with clients, but it like they actually silver will up sometimes when they need to pitch it on projects.

And then we had read to have a partnerships team. That's just incredible. They're not, you know, I don't manage them, but we work really, really in and and to make sure that we're you know, the landscape is so like moneyges. He can't do anything right. Everything. I'm sorry, so you know, we have measurement partners. You have obviously, like we work with facebook and Google, and this guy's are our partners as well. Tick Tock. We did not just measurement, but like any service that were offering to our clients that we don't have like inhouse tech for or run on an ad platform, like the trade desk, is another big one those partnership things. Wet, we share a lot of the same goals and we want to make sure that we're staying really close contact with our partners to make sure that, like our clients, are testing things that, you know, on facebook release is a new feature, want attested and see if it works. Who Want to be on the ground floor of that too, because early adoption, Veta's has. You know, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but if it does really have an early advantage, and so we always want to be on the first front of that. So you know, it's a pretty it's a pretty standard team. The content piece is the one that I'm really excited about because we do have really, really, really talented folks who, no matter how long they've been in the industry. That I had to tell a story and you know, but a lot of it comes back to that. Yeah, which teams at within? Now that you've been there for two months, which teams are you directly kind of leading, and what are your plans for the next two months? I had a conversation recently with my engrossman and we were talking about that. When you joined a new company, especially as a marketing leader, what is that three months plan look like? Since you have just recently joined, I'm sure you already have a little bit of experience for the lap, the first two months, leading the teams that you're leading, and now what's next for you for the next two months? Yeah, Oh Gosh, Um, yeah, it's so. The team I meet is our announce marketing team. So I'm in charge of getting us in front of more potential clients, prospects. Lead, whether that's through content, events, you know, you need partnerships, you name it, although our partnerships teams is the lead there. But I think that we, our teams, had some struffling. It's grown so quickly like the I think at the end of two thousand and eighteen we didn't even we weren't even a hundred people strong. Now we're plumps five hundred. Wow. So it's yeah, we've won very, very quickly, but and there're spent some turnovers and shuffling all that, and I think, like as a result from the marketing team, there's still a huge opportunity to own that performance branding space, to first of all to make people aware of like this is a thing you don't have to sill a like you said, you still see imling down where people are like performance are branding or both, or where you invest, like don't think a bit like that, and I think there's a lot of opportunity to teach people a new approach and and to associate ourselves as first of that approach. So that's going to be making sure their website reflects that. That meets we have presence at events where we can talk about that, where our ce or Joe Yep, I'm Goin to get is. I'm going to pronounce his name wrong. It's why, AK U Yel. It's another one of those things you have to learn in the first three months is how to pronounce its. Doesn't he's an incredible like high energy, amazing ideas. I mean this is his baby. We're independent. He's never going to sell it like he wants to. Build this agents and he wants to build it like in his vision. You know, he's done an amazing job of getting at to where it is. I want to get him out on stage every where I can because he's so energetic, he's so smart, so that that's a goal to put. On the other hand, like there's only wanting him and there's so many smart people the company doing really smart things at like getting them out, whether it's like, you know, mating placements in pr like write a Callum for ad week, like you have an amazing perspective. So I think the short answer is private. Like the first couple months and been to like learn everybody's name. Joe Yah. Well, I think this happy you say it and going to yell at me. I get that wrong. Learn everybody's name, learn everybody's roll, learn where we need like what are our biggest priorities? And then's three months are going to be really like, okay, let's get down to it, like let's let's tack all the you know, the opportunity to have in front of us. They're the biggest. Summer is good. I mean I'm getting in that. Like there's still a couple conferences, like it was like spring popper season and before we have like advertising we can follow, I think we'll have a little bit of time to devote to a little bit more kind of devote things like make sure their website is locked. Yep, line up speakers, line up pay our place and somethings like that. But I think what you want to think of a new job when... get in is that there's so much opportunity that you don't know what to tapple first, and that's a great problem because, like, I really believe in the company's people, so it's like I'm want to get us out there as much camp yeah, yeah, I love that. You actually even simplified it and mentioned get in, learn everybody's name, right, but learn everybody's roll and see how we can best like optimize them, because I think most of the conversation I've had with other working is the same thing. You feel like you just joined and you have so much to prove, but you go in basically with almost like this full glass mentality where you have all these ideas that you're bringing but you're really not willing to understand the agency or the company that you're working at and the roles of the people because you also don't want to, you know, Piss a lot of people off if you're going in there with your own right right, and I think that's a real I mean you want to prove value, but you don't want to like step on everybody speetory. Yeah, and that it is about. I'm sure I've stepped on thows already. You know, you you're an another agency from nine years and the amount of times I've said and had to edit myself from saying, well, at three Q we would like nobody cares, unless you have a successor of your like, I know this is going to work because but yeah, it's like you have to kind of Orient Yourself when in the culture that you're in. I'm not attended, and the culture here was awesome. It's very fast paced, it's very collaborative, it's very one of the one of the things I did that I'm most proud of is I work with our social our community manager for social media, who's also my team. She's awesome. Of Her names Bailey. Most like Bailey. You know what I think we need on our slut channels, because we did have it three Q and that was one of the first things I was like, well, at three que because we need to have a pets channel for people can post pictures up, you know, their dog. To get she posted in that channel has been like, you know, agency lift can be stressful if you want to take like today are one of our recruiting directors just got a lab or doodle, for a golden doodle or some kind of doodles. So now she's put posting pictures of her brand new puppy on the test channel and everybody's like it's best Friday I've ever had. Like we're getting puppy content. We've had bunnies, pigs, horses, ducks, like I thought it was gonna be like puppies, but it's like all the animals. So like that kind of thing, you know, especially with being all spread out it. You know, part of the marketing team's job to is like being the cheerleaders for the company, like getting people excited, getting people on more, helping, having people saying like I want to contribute to to what you're doing, because ultimately we're not the subject matter expert from not looking in the campaigns of the clients. So we want to get people who are like working so hard to make their plants successful we want to say, okay, so without one free hour week you might have, you want to contribute to marketing. We want to get them on word, and you know, one way to do that is to get everybody excited about what's going on. And they gave them a stretch break with buppy sort of event. So I was like literally smiling ear to year when you were telling me that, because we also have a like a pet channel on our slack and actually this morning we had one of the one of my corkers, have he posted a picture of his cats sun bathing and so right underneath that people started posting their pictures. That's all it takes, right like there could be like a you know, you post one picture on Wednesday and people right on and there's a couple days and somebody post a picture of all of a sudden Rey, he's got a post, like you're just somevent your Pennisti I was right. I was actually going through my phone trying to find teachers of my dogs so I can post. But then I had to prepare for this, or right after this conversation. Here in your post some pictures. Ye, I was like you, guys, this is going to be the most popular slackchannel, just trust me. And we've got people who don't have pets for late. This is the best thing I've ever seen. Yeah, yeah, and I love like the the chickens and the pigs, like that's the kind of stuff that I also think. Yeah, working a remote team, if you're also not having fun, and I'm also with you with when you're working in a marketing team, the goal is in just to like keep your heads down with your own team. You were pulled rapport you want to build relationships with with the other people your team, else you're not going to be interacting with them. And when it's time, when you actually need them and you need to type it, like, why don't I want to help you again. Yeah, but it's pretty kind of built that and that's why even at open since we've done like happy hours on Fridays, we play like, I think we recently started playing wortle, A. I took got into... today. Yeah, yeah, and Gosh, I forgot the name the other game that we've played. But we definitely try to have a little bit more fun because it does get everyone closer, and that is it sounds like grind right, like I know that a tech and agencies. It's, you know, it's part of it where it's very fast paced. It's very especially working from home, it's hard to get boundaries of like can I really long hongs like the computers right there? Yeah, but so, yeah, it's if you can provide those moments of levity year, you know, distressing during the day, like that's that's huge. Rave but you can't have those more cooler conversations? Sure, even if you're going back to the office, like I mean we were talking, like a lot of teams are distributed now, which is great for people like me were Vermond, don't don't have access to a bunch of agency jobs in Burlington. So it's awesome that's distributed, but at the same time it's you have to make some adjustments and how you go through your work day. Yeah, no, I totally still agree with you, and same with us, like we're totally distributed team and if we're not having those and we're not making time for like more cultural stuff and just getting to know your team, and I've even noticed, I feel most people are grinding much harder when there is when you are working at home, because you feel like you can like it I'll look at the clock. Sometimes it will be seven o'clock. I'm like, man, I haven't even move my legs, I got to get up. I had up. Were the other problems? You Cook dinner and they're like well, but there's a computer. Yeah, like it's right there. I could just check email web. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I love that you guys are doing that. And one of the things that you had mentioned before even you you you started sharing a little bit about like kind of the fun stuff. You mentioned that you guys are also focusing a lot on content, partnerships and events, especially, I think, with performance branding, since a lot of it seems like a lot of people know about it. A lot of people don't know about us, so they don't know the value of it. Are you having to spend at some time on building out more educational content around performance and positioning your team and the perspectives that they have and kind of tying it back to within? Yeah, absolutely that. That's really going to be part of the focus. That's how we can differenti are our content. I think we better wants to go to do that. But like they're writing these great articles about like what is affiliate marketing and what's the successful of the late marketing, which is great, and the next it is going to be like what does that look like with withins methodology, and how does that time to performance braining, like how can you do affiliate that? Yeah, connect stocks and stuff, and that isn't just sitting at the end of the fall. So for sure, like there's that. That is a big like how do we buy our own Lens? Everything? One of these things in it. I don't know why this question to maybe think of it, but one thing we do, it's called we call like cycle marketing, but it's basically like, you know, retaining customers after you acquire them, like keeping the age on going. That I think is huge and like, with the cost of acquiring customers just getting higher, retaining customers is a focus that I'm really happy that we have this an agency to that we offer. That's like not just like doesn't just end when you acquire a customer by segmenting and saying, okay, cool, like now they're they bought from the brand, they're going to oil. But it's like actually, what are we doing? Your engage time with the other on. So that's that's part of performance to is like extend that kind of stomer experience. So make sure that this person is all with a customer. Don't just target somebody who think will be a customer for a long time. Like keep engaging, like do it as long as you can and as profitably as you can't so like to me that's another part of the performance. That's I was spending a little bit of time even researching about the buyers journey life cycle and there's so much out there where it's all very also very inconsistent and they're very yeah, different, different terminology for it, but really it is this. The the principle is the same. How do you keep the customers were there? And I think it's a little bit different. I always think of things in like more of a SASS perspective. them open the subscription and and all the so you think about one of the things that we can do right now when a customer renewal is coming up. How do we reengage them? How do we keep them happy? Where are the things that you guys are noticing that work really well for your customers, especially after the sale, right to keep them, to keep them around? Yeah, it's, you know, it's things like pretension programs, loyalty programs. You know, it exclusivity that... cannot for me, actually, this is we've been talking a lot internally about things like nfts, which are I don't think we have a client who's called a proleps and top shot and be a like. They're there in that space, which is really it's fun and confusing and like brand new and we're all trying to get our heads around it. But I think like if you look at Web Three Point, oh, that's really going to be a place where you can interact with people on a different level and even incorporate them more in the lake or yourself more to their lives. They think like that's something that's going to be. You know, it's speculative. Now is that? Is it going to be like, you know, the the Netflix, like when they split out whatever it was they split out their deepeat delivery from their streaming service and that didn't last very long. Is it going to be like that, where it's like okay, it sounds great at the time kind of, and then it's going to fade away? Or is it going to be like facebook right where we's like I don't know what this is really that good for it seems kind of cool announcing till it and you know, I would say like pro I'm leaving for a lot or for sure. It's one of those things are you know, I if I were working directly with the random would incursion. They get in it now and try to figure out, like all the different touch points, because it's, you know, it's people who've been gaming for a long time. Jen xer's are actually kind of interested in about three poy no, like younger generations. For sure. These are people who are going to be spending their money for years and years and years. Like if you can engage them on another level, even another kind of web dimension, like that's a good play. I think so. I think what we think up now is, you know, we're doing email and text and stuff like that, but I think it may really kind of develop into something different. Don't ple Oh, totally. Before I was working here I was actually working at an agency, ECRYPTO blockchain agency. Really. Yeah, good. So ailes have a couple of anipties which have a where are you talking to me? I'm waiting for them to moon, and I don't think that they aren't every type of it, but it's so interesting that you mentioned that even web three, the more I try to wrap my head around it and learn about it too, because I also try to stay like I'm trying to stay two steps ahead. But I have some friends who worked in it, who work in Trypto, work with NFTS, and I asked them all the time, like what is more getting look like in web three, because right now it just it is so difficult to wrap your head around and try to figure it out right now, which is what people probably felt back in the day when, you know, facebook was here and wait, top righter, a mean facebook finally released ads. It was like he's even on work and they didn't for a while because they didn't know. Willly didn't that like custom audiences? Yeah, it's, you know, in talking to the director on our team who's working with the dapper labs and it's so you would be our in house like nfte web three. Answer. Yep. It was really interesting nearing from them, because he's like there's niche communities. You know where to go. You can go out and read it. Ticked top river. There's always going to be a small community pretty much where you go that's interested in Crypto web some of it's like artistic communities and there's this intersection. But they, if they're already interested, they're very plugged in and and most of them are a little bit affluent at least. So like the trick is for right now to blitz those guys with like awareness about ants, and then awareness leads to conversions like that. Like the buyers journey is is so short and so concentrated towards awareness and then it's like, okay, nft's this. You know, if your's the sale, it's going out like two days. So I was like, Oh my God, yeah, I'm can scrambled to get it and I stuff. It's just it's like, yeah, it's such a different like orientation of marketing and it's it's it's almost like formal marketing right, like it is, yeah, yeah, and I'm not sure it's always going to be like that. Is the as the I think the appensite gets bigger and broader, it's going to be different, but for now it's like the people who are like yelling the loudest or going to all the stuff hundred percent. It is all I know. When we were there it was all foam. It was all Foamo, which is scary. Obviously, especially for mainstream investors, don't know much and it's all hype. It is all heype building and one of the things you just said that you had to have season on right. Well, you probably at least you know what if he didn't buy in, the one of them hit, like you probably feel better that you tried, right. Yeah, like that's the thing. Totally, totally, and it's like so you always want them to like now I'm like, I'm just...

I'm not going to worry about I'm not going to stress about it, but learning and see like I see it now, is even like just artwork. That's what initially I came into it thinking, Oh, I'll make any trip. Now I'm like, Oh, it's an awesome our work, like it was. It really like lit did. It can be a collectible. Like me, I haven't spend it can even be like, you know, we're some of the brands are doing things like getting nuts and then turn it into a real life experience. Totally, like this is stuff that it's cool stuff. I means verstaful and everything that use cases exactly one of the things we mentioned earlier about things recycling. It's the same thing. When we had like I meant. I had a conversation with another friend about this. Is like pulled him on cards and based with totally thought. We Finaly to mind. One of the content radis is like it's kindly be babies, like, even every baby baby like, and you think like either I keep it or it's worth thousands of dollars some day. And yeah, maybe that wasn't pan out, but at the time, yeah, yeah, that like that's one way to think about it. Another thing that I found very interesting. So we are going to we're going to be at hub spot in bound conference and as a part of it, one of the sponsorship packages we have there is an option to have your branding all over their little digital environment that they've created, and it's very much it reminds me of I forgot the name of it. There was like a like a roller coaster world and crypto community, if don't know the name of it, but you can go in and you can purchase digital clothing for your Avatar and they're write the real estate. Netflix said real estate. I know it's created like it's insane and I'm actually already seeing now brands like hub spot and other brands are starting to build that in like web to, which we and they're also purchasing land on web three. So I can just I can spend so much time talking about this because I oh my gosh, yeah, but I think going back to like what we started talking about the beginning, it's like the tenants are. Where's your audience? Yeah, how do they want to interact? What's important to them? What story telling and with with NFTM web three, it's like itself sting like a second, but otherwise there rose the moment. But like, yeah, it's the same stuff. It's just it's just different. Like this. This feels to me like it's beyond three. Like I'm still how you buy real estate online, but ye know that that I'm still like, okay, but we're going to have to get like get used to it, get invested in. I mean the Gen x thing. I think a lot of people were like the people who played, like what is it second second city or second light for someth like it was a gaming yeah, those folks are like, Oh, yeah, I'm all about like work three, like I, you know, I can't understand. So it's not as generational as you as I would have thought. I would have thought like Oay if you're over thirty year and I've no idea about the stuff, but it's not a certain case. Yeah, yeah, I know that's Stolon. It's it's cool that you guys are working with clients like that where you're now having to think about it, because there's a huge market for it. I know when I was working at that company there were tons of cryptobrands that wanted help writing white papers. Now that's different. Right now it's not about the white papers anymore. It's about and back then it was about like security tokens, and it's changed so much. And that was only that was two thousand and seventeen, and now we're all well, yes, I like five years must be I mean you're like the thief that are Achim or something. Totally, it's truly yeah, I mean there's still the ducational component, yeah, people like but I feel like every two months I see numbers of people who have heard of Crypto or half crypto or whatever, and the numbers are growing so fast. It's like in the two thousand and seventeen, I'm sure it was like in the single digits, and now it's like you, like a third of my friends, really have you seen doute point like come on, like even by my uncle, who I can't even have like a mainstream conversations then, but he'll say you'll talk to me about big good flu like how do you know that whole funny yeah, yeah, to kind of go back it could do our conversation now. One of the things that actually I really wanted to touch on, just because you've also had lots of experience growing and scaling teams. One of the things that I also run your both fall you you've grown a team from twenty five to three hundred fifty employees. So this goes into like we're going to move into...

...the fun portion. This. The questions that I really want to know. If you had two x a staff, budget or time, which one would you choose and what would you do with it? Oh Boy, well, I didn't grow a team to three hundred and fifty. I hoped to grow three q like by helping brand new clients and stuff. So I don't I don't want anybody think. I mean it's three hundred people, but Um, not money outside of personal because I think like if you have money, you spend it because you're like cool, but if you don't have the people to actually make the most use of technology. For stance, we work with open sense. We've vastly under utilized your tool and that's not the tools fault, it's not the capability's fault. We haven't anybody in place for a while to look at it and say, like what should be doing, so for sure, or like tech is amazing and can make your job he's you're easy to have a right people running it. So I would say not not just money, time or way. It's between time and people, because people can, you know, if they have the right skill sets, they can take over things, will give you more time and they'll I think it's people, but it's the right people who are like you know, in this industry it's like you come in with a skill set that you're really good at, you can take over it away, even if it's problem. Something to have to be a person who has a skill set or a role where people are like, if I need this, I go to that person. You come in with that and learn, you're ready to learn everything else because, like what you would have to talk about plus five minutes. That was so far off the map, like when I started out in this stuff right and if you don't, if you don't learn and grasp new challengeses, you will and and encourage your team to do this same thing. Yeah, you're you're in a fall behind break the place. So I think like the right people and and trying to carve out time for them to learn, like take ten percent of your time and say, like, I'm going to catch up on whatever I think is going to be importment next quarter. River at least stayed up for end. Yeah, yeah, I know, I love that. And one of the things that we're also trying to think about even an open sense, and I think most people are, when you're hiring right the right people, besides the fact that you want them to work and have a certain skill set for the job, also thinking a little bit more beyond that job. Where does this person have the capability of the interest to also be presented as a thought leader? Because that's also a new I'm not going to say it's like trending, but if I can, if we can hire someone in it who's like, yeah, I want to lead a podcast or only do something like that, then you're basically you're doing so much more. You're helping them get extrer atchecting more value from them and helping position them. Oh, for sure, it's like you know, and I think good bosses and the good managers all be really up front about me, like look, we're not in the forties, like nobody keeps the same job for thirty years anymore. At I want to get you to a point where somebody wants to hire you at a little two times higher than you are now, or two levels higher you are now. And if that's not us, then you know, and it's a great opportunity to go for it. That means you have to build your careers go and you know, training is a big part of that. Learning is a part of that. Like yeah, absolutely so. And now moving on to career stuff, what's the biggest lesson you've learned in your career that you would basically want to impart that knowledge on someone else? Oh, Um, for in this maybe like person I think it's definitely personal to me, like some of the people may be like no, I don't have a problem. For me, it's like you want to do somebody things, there's not that much time. They're fiftyzero things in a day you could do. Speed is important, but I've learned that sometimes it's it's way better just take a breass and be like is that the right thing right now, before just charging ahead. Everybody loves crossing things off a list. I loved crossing it's so satisfying. Or like you go into a sign, you quick complete, like seeing that Hunus, like it's like game of vacation. Right. It's their satisfaction in doing not but like sometimes it's just important to say, okay, is this? Is this the right move right now? Further of the things I should think about, like that's that's something I try to remember her, but yet. So it's I don't think it's changed my life yet, but the realization has, as Damb on you last couple of years, like take a break, not nothing, a break, or go off the dog like sometimes you get your very best thoughts creatively workwise when you can't write them down, you can't get to them right away. Like how many times have you been like...

...driving where you can't do anything and you get these great ideas and you're like I I can't do anything with these right now, so your mind just goes or you're in the showered, like I've been a great idea but I'm not near my computers. I can't write it down, but you need to take that time just let your mind run. Yeah, and that's another thing I've kind of realized. When I'm walking the dog, it's not necessarily break because I'm still thinking about work and get some really good ideas. You got to step back from the computer sometimes, otherwise we're always going to have the same throo. Yeah, I know that is so true. I've gotten some ideas, like in a joy beream what I will. That's scary. Yeah, I think that's that. Everybody's woken up at two am. But like, I want to read something down. Dreaming about it, though, that's nine level. I'll honestly though, when you wake up and you're trying to remember that dream, hope with your eyes is that. And I remember I kept a notebook because I'm not going I want to have a dream again, but it is so challenging even remembering dreams. But yeah, well, you're so right about that. I feel like when you were working in an office and working with your co workers, I would get those. We would get get our most creative moments having beers after work. Okay, you know, you know you do that. And he also don't want to bore your like I don't want to bore my partner, but you know, res and be like Hey, he's like you're always talking about work. Stop. The only thing about drinking beer after work is every idea seems great you'll have. This is the best thing I've ever as every idea is the best when you've ever had a hundred percent. But I do like that at least walking the dog and taking yourself out of your office and going do something funding you catch yourself keeping a notebook with you. I love that, and that kind of very nicely leads into my next how do you, if you do, maintain work life balance? It's hard working, mom. I mean that's you know, it's one of the things we covered. I I try to tell people at the end of the day I'm walking off, I have slapped on my phone, just a really big like I don't know if I keep it on my phone because it's so easy to check and slack is like so you like, if it's important enough, they can text you, they can email you whatever. So I do try to limit like the access I give to myself, but it's, you know, it's a game like it. There's so many things you want to do, you know, get out of the house. Honestly, like and and when work from home, it's like very easy to get inner show, especially it's April now, but in Vermont February, like you know, it's you don't always want to go out, like it's cooled out there. It's, you know, snowing. But yeah, just getting out, making sure you're being intentional about spending time with other people, not thinking about work for a while. My weekends are right weekends, like I meet, check emails to make sure on top of things for Monday, but I never ask anybody to work on Saturday or Sunday. then. Now this is going to be recording to my team wrote me on that. They thought, like you just need breaks. I mean it's you don't take breaks, you're going to burn out. I mean burn it is common enough in agencies and TAC and and all that stuff. Like can I think a lot of just not drawing boundary. Yeah, you know, I love that. And especially if you are a leader, which you know you are, and your do Y, if my team sends me online all day every day, like they're going to think they can't Bob off, which is last yeah, yeah, it's and it's it is super stressful. Last two questions. What's one thing you think marketer should stop doing that they are doing right now, or start and doing that they're not? I would start poking on the Mota verse, because if they don't, they're taking a bet that it's not going to be a big thing, which is great if it's not, but if it is, you don't want to be less like trying to scramble and explain in the clients like why you don't have an offering that. Yeah, that's one thing I dear. I mean it's you know, and it's kind of like in two thousand and eleven saying like heep probably want to get a real presence on facebook, like they're going to start, you know, developing adds, even if it wasn't true at the time, and not meeting rabbiting from a time I think like get, get those seats ready. Yeah, that or like tick tock is a most recent example. Yeah, what everyone is talking about tick tock and just absolutely like yeah, and there was enough like you know, kind of noise about like the privacytions on Tick Tock, and I mean like owned by the Chinese government and all that stuff. Like if you listen to that and just put up a hard wall like your clients would have missed out on big time engagement opportunities. YEA hundred percent. Last one. Who are other marketers that you look up to, or maybe someone that you would recommend us reach out and kind of bring him into this conversation? Man David...

Romisqui. He's he was the founder of three Q. You. He was my contact to bring me in there. He's just the most thoughtful guy about like issues above and beyond marketing. He's always a great conversation like. I would definitely reach out to him. He's got like a different way of looking at things to I think you would be really like. I never come away from a conversation with David of any length and them like I didn't work anything. So He's great a definitely reach out to him. We absolutely love inviting markers like you, especially with the kind of perspective that you're bringing. This is also the first time on growth marketing camp that anyone's mentioned metaverse or NFT's yeah, getting Oh the last and if not, I'm not like a technic file either, like I'm you know, the kicking and screaming into like I mean, yeah, my team can tell you that once already. Be Like, if you need something like on social media, don't ask the rebout me, yeats, but it's just I think it's just such a it's so big. It's going to be really hard doing more and likely the doctors are gonna but yeah, I've said guess like, yeah, not even that. It's like considering how quickly things have changed. Right even we discussed the last eleven years, but since two thousand and seventeen, how quickly that's change. I bet you in five years it's going to be it's going to hit us in the face if we don't, if we don't prepare for her now. But this was such an amazing conversation. Absolutely love chatting with you. Thank you again for joining and for everybody else's listening. How can they connect with you? Linkedin's very easy. We had a conversation before the Steven started. You know I'm trying to sneak across the border to Canada like an a little bit crazy down here in the states. So keeping out for me to come back, vermonter with that Kevia Klau. But yeah, Linden's you's of the best. Definitely linkedin or if you decide to ever come up to Vancouver, then I'll just get you up with it. WOT that for sure, and we'll take it up on the beer friend will as yeah exactly, will have good conversation with beer wine. Love it. Thanks again and we will catch you guys next time. Thanks so much. Thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you'd give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to give a little more inspiration for their next campaign. If you want to learn more about the company behind the show, had to open sensecom. That's Ope, en se n Secom will catch you on the next episode.

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