Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 54 · 6 months ago

How Marketing Can Create Easy Conversations for Sales

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Built by developers for developers with the goal of making their lives easier, LaunchDarkly has managed to stand out quickly and cut through the noise with their product. And this week, Maurice Maxwell, Digital Demand Manager at LaunchDarkly, joins us on Growth Marketing Camp to share what channels they focus on, along with his own personal growth story.

Plus, he talks about the favorite part of his job and why it’s important to optimize your LinkedIn profile. Dig in!

Welcome to growth marketing camp, or we sit down with our favorite marketers to do mystify growth and give you the insights to help turn your next campaign into a major success. Let's get into it. What's up, Ladies and gentlemen, this is bobby and rangue. I am cohost of growth marketing camp. I'm incredibly excited today to be joined by Maurice Maxwell. He's digital demand manager at launched darkly. Maurice, welcome to the program Hey, thanks for have aways. Yeah, excited to have this conversation today. Now, before we really get into it, I'd love to take a minute and have you explain a little bit about launched darkly, the problems that you're solving in the market, and then maybe you can tell our audience load about your role at launch darkly. Yeah, of course. So launched darkly is a beautiful SASS company. We we basically offer our solution like Portorg. Audience is mainly like developers. Okay, though, we offer the solution called feature management, and I got as clearly. What feature manasment allows people to do is to launch features, different code bases, different different things that people will to launch basically risk free. Okay, so like, say, facebook wanted to test it this like book, I don't have it now, and they sure, we're going back a couple years where? Yeah, so what they would do with launched darkly is they would or without launched darkly, they would test that, they would locks that feature to everybody. Hey, yeah, if there was a bug, if there was an issue of people hated it, they'd have to go back into the code fix things, you know. And for some reason some people like so lack stuff on Fridays. Yeah, it's like, Oh, let's turn on this feature. It go on and go hang out in the weekend. Yeah, yeah, this call it's like, Hey, shit hit the fan, go back to work and fix it. Yep. So with launch, what a feature flag does is allows people to basically wrap it in a flag and basically have a toddle on toddle off. So if someone launches a new feature, they could test it to subset of an audience. Say We want to launch two people only compifornia. You'd say launch it there, test it. If we have any problems, like, oh no, the whole website crash. Hey, you could turn off with the click of the button. Amazing. So it really helps engineers deploy faster, help them deploy feature faster with very, very low risk. Yeah, I mean, as you describe that, I'm reminded of, you know, from a from a marketing standpoint. You know, the idea of basically like iterating or AB testing pages on your website to determine, you know, what converts better and and that's something that's been available to marketers forever. But you're sort of bring...

...that type of functionality two developers, like in APP, which is seen. You imagine how powerful that might be. Cool that. That makes a ton of sense. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing there right now. Yeah, so, as I say that digital to band manager here, I manage saw on the digital side. I manage all of our paid media, okay, programs, the strategy behind those, the budget behind those and goals behind those. So that it for me personally, I tend to stay in the paid social side. Guy Still manage like paid surge. Principally I take a, oh a larger part of the action stuff within paid solcial. Got It. Okay. Now one of the things that I was really excited to speak with you about. Task to do with where launched darkly, is as a company. You know, you're the company is raised hundred of millions of dollars in funding. What I'm curious about is when a company is in a position like yours, you know, what kind of objectives does that bring about for you individually and perhaps of the marketing team more broadly? When I'm when I'm trying to understand is, you know, how does the marketing function operate in a situation where you're kind of in that's like growth funding, right, so like you've taken on a ton of money, the company has to grow. Like how does that influence the objectives that the marketing team has broadly and perhaps how does that funnel down to you as as a contributor to the team? Yeah, so when we're at the growth mode, or when you're a growth mode, things that you would really take normally when you're like Oh, we need to we need to make sure they we're getting x amount of a turn in order to fund this project, kind of goes out the window. Okay, yeah, it's like so in some way it's like it's it fills backwards. Okay, but really what we're trying to do is drive conversations, and so we're trying to spend money to get visibility, to get awareness, and that's that's about it. And hand obviously we're still running lead generation, demand generation type campains where we're trying to get people to download some content, but large portionar our budget is sped towards awareness and hey, you know, like you could, you'd call brand like we spend on brandy. But luckily we have a really good CMO who really, really tied to the success, but isn't like, Oh Gosh, did you back cepels? Really High Guy. Yeah, what's going on? Like if I get it, if I get a lead to paid search for Twozero, he's like he's not going to bad night. That okay. If it's like Twentyzero might be a little hot, sure, but like really, that's within this growth mode we're trying to be there with. People are in that consideration set right, right,...

...well to peak their interests so that they're like, oh, this could, this could revolutionize the way that I deploy code. Yep, let me dig dig into it. Yeah, it's when you're that growth quote. It's all about being in the place of that people are not really that awareness and making sure that once they are, like I need to I need to get this. You're there. So so this is reminding me of some of the conversation that you and I had offline prior to this, to this interview. In I believe the idea is that your goal is to not just sort of produce like here's all the leads we drove this month or whatever. Your goal is really to create that intentional or that high intent kind of experience where somebody, when they are coming to you or they submit the form or whatever, they've already determined that they kind of need what you provide, right and so and so, if I'm hearing it correctly, it's it's really about making sure that the market like understands what will, that you understand what their problems are and that they understand that launch darkly is a provider in the market that can potentially meet their need or solve their pain or or provide the value that you're providing. Some really kind of creating that awareness, creating that sort of like understanding of what launched darkly is doing before they ever even talk to someone on the sales team. Perhaps that right? Yeah, exactly. We're like like guy, I like to say that we're sending our content to build out conversation. Yeah, like I like, one of the things that we're supposed to do that I really take on as as my mantra is creating easy conversations for selves. Absolutely. So, when we're thinking about campaigd successes, it's like are we spending and in the right ICP hy to the right people at the right time to help them learn more? Absolutely, and we're willing to spend and sometimes pay people to learn about long start interesting, interesting. So can we talk a little about that, because I'm curious because it seems like the idea of launching a feature like broadly and at scale, it seems like that would be like an understood problem and and or potential like avenue for problems like as you describing, like you launched it on a Friday and next thing you know you're you know, the proverbial s is hit in the fan, and I've been there in certain circumstances. So I guess, like, how do you go about that, because it seems to me that like, like obviously softwares eating the world's there's enough developers out there. Enough of developers understand that, you know, launching a product or a feature basically at scale can be can introduce challenges. You know, how do you bridge that gap from Hey, there is this sort of pain to then? I mean, ultimately you're trying to like educate around the fact that, hey, you can have an iterative approach, you can have sort of the incremental approach here. I guess.

How do you go about sort of like letting people know that there's pain there that can be solved? I guess. I don't know if that question makes a ton of sense. No, it does. I mean the way I think about that is like long starkly came up with the word feature flag. Okay, came up at the work the term feature management, and so it really is something that people don't know about. Interesting and unless they like, there's always been some type of tonicling feature, especially huge companies, because people can build, build out this product it and a lot of companies do, like facebook and other other companies do. But it's not like it's not well managed. It's not within like, for example, people can build a crb and it spreadsheets and will yeah, really simple, but there's not. It doesn't scale absolutely a sound a little with with a lot of these companies. It's been there, it's so for us it's it's all about building that like hey, yeah, there's this thing out here that, especially beer companies and it enterprises businesses, is show them like, Hey, you have this, but it can be you can have it without a lot of tech, debt total and other things. But in regards to your question, we have to do that. We have to build that awareness different ways. We do that in inform of videos other things, but it's really about changing their frame of mind and showing them like Hey, you've had this experience. Yeah, this experience could be a lot easier. Yeah, listen and like the question is kind of difficult, but yeah, that's to get to like the point of it, like we're healthy them to change your mind. Is We do that by being where they're at? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess the reason, the reason it's hard for me in articulate is because it seems like that market would be looking for something like that, some way to like incrementally release or like, you know, have that sort of stepwise approach to actually like releasing a feature, and so, I mean, have you found that? Is that something that the market is looking for and and you're just making sure that you're there to a like answer the question when they're looking for it. I mean, I'll do it. Sounds like maybe that's a part of the job right now. Right percent. Like, yeah, in terms of companies that I've been out, yeah, been at this. Like the product to launched darkly is easy. So, and there's a reason why. I like our roteture is like a hundred eighty five percent. Wow, like we focus on new business and in terms of like revenue pipeline and stuff like that. But there's a reason why when we like we're okay, spending a ton of money and, you know, not seeing a huge return, we close somebody. Hey, no, down the down the line, they're...

...going to sun like it. They're two thousand person company. They're going to be most likely signing a five hundred fifty thou dollar were curry run hand check within the the end of the year. Yeah, yeah, Oh, it's like the products easy to sell. Yeah, it's just about presenting what we offer in the place of the people around. I've been looking at it. Sounds like I'm not a I'm not an engineer, but where you're describing sounds like something that every engineering team should be, I should be utilizing for sure. So then let's talk about your prospect your CP a little bit. Who are they? And I guess where do they live? Where do they interact? When you say you meet you market, where you meeting your I sep these days? Yeah, so our ICP is like, in terms of companies, it's basically everyone. And I know that when you say, Oh, our our more target is everyone, it means no one and like. But obviously it's more. It's more quine of that. But in terms of the companies, every company that has a product, yeah, that has any type of digital product, website, M can use launch short, but for the most part, long starklely was. It isn't. Was a company that's was built by developers for developers. Right, it's so anybody who touches code should have launched darkly, absolutely, or should be or should be using a feature flag system like many time. Like if you're not, you're piking your life difficult. You know, and he and that's what basically it's like. When, like, when we are offering thingss like hey, make your life easier. Yeah, yeah, you want to do you want to add some simplicity to this difficult live, difficult tyler having try using launch shark ly and, you know, make it pig your life easier. It's right, really go sell. But in terms of our like ICP, we're looking for software developers, develops, folks, Yep, on the higher n VP's of engineering, CIO CTO, who's yet them? People? Yep, and I mean generally speaking. I mean I know you said you're managing paid digital channels. Like where do you find that ICP converting the most or where do they reside? We ought to these most often. We do a really good job binding like we have. We have target accounts that we're, yeah, focusing on to make sure that we're, we're not spending everywhere, like we're trying to be everywhere, but it reallyastically makes sense, of to spend on companies who can adapt your platform quickly. Absolutely so. We spend a lot of money on Linkedin, facebook, instagram and hey, your classic paid social spaces. We are like in terms of advertising, we're relatively do okay. We've only been spending on linked in for maybe two years. I say so like if you...

...if you think about a company that's kind of behind the curve, and that's us. So we're trying, like we're we spend massive amounts of money in all these places. Got It. So we're still I like we spend on twitter, we've started testing reddit and youtube, but like anywhere, and we also have like contents indication. Yep, no work that we're doing. And we also have this this platform them we call always on Dev marketing and it's like blogs and emails that were like email newsletters that we just picked more got it back to spen. Yeah, you're kind of blanketing the market, like anywhere they could potentially be. Your aiming to be there, which is kind of awesome. Let me ask you, like what do you find is your, I guess, your favorite part of your job right now? You've been with launched darkly from us a year and a half, from what I can tell. I mean, what do you love about this opportunity in this moment as a marketer? Yeah, I mean it's for me, it's like I'm coming up my career. You, though, and you being able to to own and we had a soley channels. Yeah, I've been a lot of flu like at to see how chat like really dig it and see, all right, it on Facebook, you know, surprisingly, like sit to heavage copy does really well and well and but also like carousel. I really ton of like getting down to those like those content pieces, of what works best on which platforms, of testing those. Yeah, I enjoy that. Cool, because I feel like I'm an optimizer. Yeah, yeah, so like going into those platforms optimizing, making sure that we are hitting up the our audiences. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah. Can we talk about that process of optimizing a little bit, like when you think about it per channel, like do you have like a very specific approach or almost like a template that you use in terms of, okay, I'm going to run an ad for ex period of time, we're going to AB tests. I mean, I guess what. Do you have a fixed process or is it something that's like unique per channel that you're you're trying to optimize within? Yeah, I mean we have a process in in place. We use a lot of like in a google search, we use scripts to kind of run through like our update, it's not getting conversions, will turn that off and increase spent and somewhere else, and or we constantly play with that type those types of things. Yep, we do. We actually use a partner to help us, like facebook and it's Wi. I'll give them a shot. Out. It's called Metta data. Okay, yeah, I know that. So basically they allow us to have weaked level targeting on facebook and instagram so that we can make...

...sure like we're really focused on certain accounts. They have like a testing infrastructure built it. So, course, though, we have like native type things that we can run in there, like study. All right, if we're looking, if we're running the legion Camp A, we want to get leads at x amount that. If we don't, if we don't get it, let's spend, you know, like let's say I want to get it at two hundred rollers only. Yeah, if we're not getting leads, a two hundred dollars lead, if we spend four hundred dollars don't get lead, the turnoff that campaign and move that that spent in a different place. Got It. So we have that those testing functionalities. Yeah, we run like square adds versus the landscape, ads, versus video, versus all those leas. So that that really helps us test. Yeah, in that infrastructure. So it makes it more simple. But other platforms were like, if you know any any systems that have that for like twitter, roll words, anything like that, let me know. Yeah, I'm at it. YEA, but yeah, for those ones we're kind of doing the same thing, but it's built in spray shoots. I see. Yeah, let me also ask you about your relationship, if any, with the sales organization. Are you interacting with them at any point? Or, I guess what, whether it's you or someone on your team, did, you might just maybe providing a little bit of color on sort of like what that ship looks like. That launched our cue. Yeah, we have it until this year. Okay. Well, like we have like a conversation loop with some of our like beating heart leaders to see how leads are going, and it's kind of been a mess, okay, the last like six months. But now we have like we put all of the demand Jen marketers, so me, contents of the cation person, our advents people and all of our bed ours one channel and it's like hey, if you guys have a question about a lead, said it our way. Cool, and it's kind of Nice because we're we kind of get that ground level view. Yeah, how things are going. Absolutely and so if we're like all right, we're going to run this gift card campaign where somebody you know submits this and they get a demo if you have questions, let me know. Yeah, we exactly who this lead like. Obviously they have a lot of detail on who the lead is, but I can give you any information that you need. So that's been really nice because we can help them really accelerate those leads and make sure that they're getting touched. That sounds really bad that they did. And there's Youd's like a hands on, hands on approach really quickly. That's added barely better. But yes, I hear you. I think that's really interesting because, you know, one...

...of the things I learned at a demandin meet up not too long ago was that it's not just important to figure out, like what it cost to get a lead from a particular channel, what's the value of that lead, you know, from that channel, meaning like it may be cheaper to get a lead from facebook, but it's only converting at x amount, whereas it's more expensive to get to lead to Linkedin, but it's worth five x that amount. So I mean, like, are you do you all? I know this goes back to some some of the early comments you made that you know you're not so much like in the weeds on cost for lead and things like that, but like to what extent are you closing the loop on? You know the channels that you're operating within and you know what they're actually producing in terms of like, I mean I guess it is ultimately Roy, but I mean do you have that close over? It sounds like maybe recently, like what with the bedrs and just sort of being in touch with them about those leads. But to what extent are you kind of like measuring, sort of like post conversion, what that lead was actually worth? Yeah, I mean we'd for myself, I look at those, those reports Poles dately. Yeah, I can tell you that. Like we're like seventy six percent through a quarter. And Yeah, we're seventy seven percent of our selves qualifies opportunities. So, like I keep, I keep a really close tract of les. Yep, like you have to be you know. And Yeah, like it's it's easy to just be like okay, I this number of leads, I'm good. Yeah, but like that's like going skiddy. Yeah, totally. You really if you really want to do a good job, you need to make sure that you are tracking. You're like if you're if your organization is a track, e. to cells, qualified leads and or pipeline, then you should do it yourself. Absolutely, you know, because if you want to if you want to grow in this world of marketing, revenues key, absolutely so. If you if you're not helping the organization to increase the revenue or get over the goals are, especially sell side, if you're not aligned, I mean, it's good, this is going to be a difficult acple it's incomplete story, I think right. I mean you got to have like the happy ending. Oh, hopefully it's a happy ending at when all was said and done. I want to ask you about that, because you know you're alluding to what it takes to be, you know, successful and you know you're you're in a really, I think, important role at a very important company. Right now. Let's pivot a little bit. Let's talk a little bit about you and your career. How did you how did you get here? What's your story? I mean, how did you end up in marketing? And then, more specifically, like we're always interested in digital, like, how did you end up in this position? Yeah, I mean I was always into to marketing, specially, I call it all right, I'm on getting finance, because that's where the Bundy's at. Yeah, like it is. Obviously. Yeah, I found that like it's a little too...

...analytical, and I found marketing, and I found digital marketing especially, and I'm like, well, I got to work with the numbers but also be creative. Yeah, let's flat. It's like the best thing. That's a best balance book. But out of college I got into the agency live, okay, where I was managing you know, be bean companies, small service companies, actually had a very large portfolio of like storage clients. At the funniest thing about that is their biggest competition with garage. It's the weirdest thing. Oh my goodness. Yeah, anyways, but I found myself there in an agency and you know, it helped me learn like how to do marketing, which if your for me, because I mean in college you learn big, big ideas, but not how to ask. Yeah, so that was a really good, good thing for me. When we have SEO, hit against all that stuff, and it's a good thing I did, because that understanding of Seo and really understanding like leaked in help me break into through the text base. Interesting. Yeah, so, like for people who are who are listening, who were like I really want to get into the type World Yeah, howcome? Wise your linked in profile, especially nowadays, you can get there. So you're talking about your own profile file helped you get into tech, not just sort of your understanding of Linkedin. What do you mean by that? Let's hear the think I'm that a little bit. I mean linked it like I make sure that, like, like, if you look at a resume of somebody who's looking for a director of demand generation, yeah, you look at those, the things that they have put, the things that you've done in your job, job of scriptures, of all the places you've been, and you will start matchy with the people. Like. It's basically a search engine, right, and if you think about your profile like a website, yeah, want to make sure you've certain keywords, you want to make sure that you know you have certain things. I'll resume, and basically that's what I found out early. Yeah, and make sure that my profile was optimized for for what. I want to gem that that is really actually like a, I think, a really valuable tidbit, because actually noticed on your profile when I was doing some just background, is that you actually have like a services. I don't know if it's offered section or something like. There's a it's in gray right right at the bottom, like beneath your photo, and I noticed that because I feel like I don't notice that on a ton of profiles, right is it? I mean, so you're talking about that part. You're talking about like within your actual experience, like blocks for four different things that you done in career. At the idea of treating it like a website where you know as dios involved and you want to make...

...sure you get the key words. I mean, that makes a ton of sense. Are you saying that? Like in doing that, you were hit up by recruiters? I mean, as a result of that, YEP, wasn't working for a job. They're like hey, we I was actually a couple of my last company that was out for a couple years called yeah, it's right, Uh Huh, and I had a recruiter like hey, found your found your profile, let's have a conversation. That conversation led to my first tech job. That is so cool and I can't wait to, you know, scour your linkedin for some some ideas, but that's a phenomenal one. And and so one of your breaks. I mean, where you trying to get into tech at the time, or was it just something that like, you know, you got the opportunity, so it was like why not? It wasn't. Actually I was probably on my happiest company about maybe really. Yeah. Well, working that, I was learning along, I was growing and I wasn't looking at all, you know, like I was working at a really small agency. Think there was like twelve of us, really close knit, and it was kind of a sad thing that like move on, but it was great for my career, great for my family and I'm like a people person, so it was like a really good spot for you, but it really helped me build up to where round. That's phenomenal. I think that's a really valuable piece of information. That and what I heard you say earlier about digital being a great place for analytical thinkers who want to have both an analytical and creative experience in their career. You're right. I mean that sounds like really obvious. I think back to one of the first jobs I had of a company called the XT. Our paid search guy was like a math wizard and he was just like treating it like a stock portfolio, basically, where, you know, different spends were being made and measured and readjusted and and it was just a highly, highly like a really numbers driven position, which I remember being really kind of like surprised by even back then. US, you know, he doesn't really get like all a lot of marketing it's about and investing. Yeah, but up basically placing beds based on past performance. Absolutely, absolutely phenomenal. I love that so much. And and actually, while we're on this train, because I think you've shared a couple of really interesting tidbits on, you know, your career progression to where you are today. Going back, you'll didn't profile for a little bit. I noticed that you are actually you are managing your own agency currently still, if I'm not mistaken. And and I think that's something I wanted to talk to you about, because that's arguably like a little bit of a side Hustle and I just want to ask you a little bit about it because, a, I find it very interesting, but why is it important for you to have that right now? And and maybe you just tell us what it is and you know what that side Hustle is, what it means to you at this point in your career. I co founded with the Buddy of mine couple years ago a company Cold Market Ship Huh. It's just an agency consulting thing thing to do on the side and to basically, within the same space,...

BEEDB worketty, sort like we to help a couple service companies. But one of the things that it's off it's obviously the side hustles and the way to make some some extra money on the side. Yeah, but some of my fund trips, Yep, you know, stuff like that, which, of course, but honestly, a big reason why I do it is it helps keep me humble and keep me all my toes, because within being be marketing, specially like paid performance media, you can waste a lot of money. Uh, you can be like, all right, today, I don't really care that I'm not driver results because you know, I can. I can spend an extra fiftyzero. It'd be okay. Yeah, but like a smaller company that's spending to Threezero a month needs to have performance in order to justify that spin. Absolutely, and so if they don't have that spen, it's like some of these guys that's coming out that's coming there telling me let's come in out of their own pocket. Absolutely, and so I think for me it's it's nice because it helps me stay on my toes, help he understand and get to know how businesses worked from a different perspective. Yet for me it's it's been really nice. It's been really it's been helpful for my career, yeah, up, and also my personal life. Yeah, I bet. And I guess. How important is it to you that? And I don't know if this is a relevant question or not, but I mean it seems important that launched darkly is supportive of that or, you know, in some way. I mean that is that a fair sort of perspective? Or I guess it. Maybe they just don't cross paths. I'm just curious, like with the balancing access there. I mean for up, for a lot of things. It's not like I'm, you know, I devoting the number of hours that I've been. I've been absolutely paying forward to do. Yeah, yeah, I'm going up and I've only seen success here, although, like you know, like Oh, I take it away time for long starkly, because this other things more important exactly. But for me, like like launched darkly was built as a cybe business. Yeah, at the start. Yeah, our founders built it on the side bow that it was useful for people and they're like okay, let's make the switch, you know, and that's kind of I'm not going to say I can't speak for everybody. A walks darkly, but no, many people want starkly. Have like do consulting cookside. Absolutely, yeah, blood is doesn't compete with what long starkly. Yeah, launch darkly doesn't necessarily care or and they don't unless you're working to full time jumps. Yeah, of course. We had one guy who's working three full tight and his face was on a billboard in New York City and they're like Um, well, oh my goodness. Yeah, dude,...

I feel like I need to interview that guy. Yes, it looks that's about his worth. I think I good this. That is incredible, but it is interesting that it's kind of like in the ethos of launch darkly, considering the fact that that's how the company was started. But the reason I thought it was like a relevant point is this. I feel that like work life balance is in such a flux over these last few years, and I know you're your venture probably pre dates that a little bit, but it seems like we're in this interesting period of time where people are either they have more time because they're working from home, or they're taking more agency over their time and and and drawing more of those boundaries, because it was impossible to have boundaries when you're at home at first, right. And so it almost seems like this is like a an era where, you know, professionals who know their shit are able to hey, you know what, I have this extra time. I'm not commuting three hours a day. You know, maybe I can a lot that time to something productive and, you know, to your point, you know, make a little extra extra change on the side to fund my you know, vacation in Hawaii or whatever the case might be. Yeah, I'm big talk about that commuting part. Yeah, that has been so helpful for me. Yeah, yeah, like being able to be like, okay, I poem. Yeah, with my word. I finish all the things I needed to do for the day. Launch darkly. It's six o'clock. I mean maybe it's nine o'clock. I put my kids down. Yeah, all right, instead of watching seven hours of game of thrones, yeah, we'd I'm going to do three hours of work with with my with market should you know, absolutely cool that. I mean, that's that's really awesome. I know we're up at time here. It's going to ask you a question before we wrap up. I mean, who do you who do you look up to? And in the field, I mean colleagues aside, I mean are you read aming it? Reading anybody, or follow any blogs, or who is it that sort of like influential and on some of the ways that you put your job today? Yeah, is name was Chris Walker, yet better one. I interviewed him about two weeks ago. Oh, awesome. Yeah, we find laps. This bit up is great. I've really reconsidered a lot of way all of the things that I'm doing in terms of, you know, I'm gaining things. Yep, yeah, how gating your content is really comera intuitive to your actual objective. Huh, that's really hooped my eyes to how I how I do stuff today. Yeah, not that we're like it's hard to change the tile organization built from gated to completely ungate. Yeah, yeah, but we are, for I and it all of my things incorporated a ton of about the gated, a gate of strategy. Absolutely, I mean it's a matter of just like putting the content out there to your point of cheasing the objectives of educating the markets that when they do pick up the phone and talk to sales. They kind of already know what they want, right, like creating that high intent experienced at scale,...

...right. I mean that's that's ultimately I think, like what you know, whether it's ungated content, even this podcast for open sense. You know, it's a part. I mean that's a part of you know, like full transparency. Why we do it, like we hope that this is a useful conversation for our eventual market and eventual customers to be engaging with. So, yeah, that's a great call out, whereas this a fun conversation. Man, I really appreciate you coming on the show today. Yeah, we're can our audience find you? Are Missui. I see your active on Linkedin. Any other channels that that you think people could could reach out? Yeah, leaked dunes, big one. I usually connect with more people than I should if I'd have a yeah, I mean I have market shit. I wasn't able to afford the market shipcom. We're good. Yeah, Shit, okay, okay with the yeah, and I'm also thinking about I'm starting a instagram like rules by type, type, be bead marketing thing. Yep, you can find a demand Jin man, demand gin man. Okay, so awesome, cool well, thank you so much for being on the show and we'll look forward to the next conversation. Also be how could be here? It's gonna thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, would love it if you would give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague. would be to give a little more inspiration for their next CAMPA. Right. You want to learn more about the company behind the show, had to open sensecom. That's open se en Secom. Will catch you on the next episode.

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