Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 25 · 1 year ago

How One Blip on the Radar Turned Into a Major Source of New User Growth

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

David Stauffer, VP of Marketing at Workona, surveys his marketing metrics every day. And the anomaly he found back in February turned out to be a huge source of new users. One of Workona’s minor features turned out to be a huge opportunity when the well-loved Chrome extension, The Great Suspender, was removed from the Chrome store suddenly. Through flexibility and some clever positioning, the Workona marketing team was able to benefit thousands of users who suddenly lost their favorite plugin, setting the stage for conversations around the larger Workona functionality. It’s a tale of fast reflexes and clever positioning that’s still generating new user growth.

Welcome to growth marketing camp, where we sit down with our favorite marketers to de mystify growth and give you the insights to help turn your next campaign into a major success. Let's get into it, all right. Welcome to another exciting episode of Growth Marketing Camp. So pleased to be joined by David Staffer, the VP of marketing at Workona, which is a in forgive me, this is my description. I wrote this myself. It's a browser based tool for managing all the work we do is marketers, in a single place. Obviously it applies to more than marketers, but ahead of this episode I shared your site with my team and they were just mesmerized. So, since our listeners are like us, living in a million browser tabs, tell us a little bit about the product before we jump into the interview here. Yeah, no, I'll be happy to you. I'm curious what mesmerized your team. I was I'm going to start there. Well, Oh, they love the site. So anybody who wants to see it, you've got to go to work on a site. But it was very apparent how useful it was to be able to pull information from different places where we're already gathering data, where we're managing projects across multiple tools. So maybe as you explain it, others will have the context of what that means. But it was quite exciting for them because we run projects across million different places. Google Docs, you know. Yeah, now, that's exactly right. That's perfect. That's the response we're hoping for. We hear this a lot with Worrekno and people are first learning about our first using it. We hear this thing where people say, how did I not know about this before, or how did someone not build this before, which is really I mean, it's a good question. I'm happy we were there first. But yeah, so we're CONA really the mission statement of we're KNA that I like to say is that we are trying to make work in the cloud of more unified and effortless experience. And so what I mean by that is, as a lot of us that use cloud applications, we use many of them Google docs, Figma, air, table sheets, drive sales for any any type of cloud application, obviously we're using that on the Internet in the browser. We can. For any given project that we have, we're going to have associated docs across several different applications and there's...

...really not one place to access all the docks relevant to a project until now, but oftentimes we'll have all those docks scattered across dozens and dozens of different tabs. And so what we did was we built we're Cona as really a way to organize your work in the cloud by project. And by project I mean by that is we had these things called workspaces and it lives in the Sidebar, just right in the browser, and then the sidebar a workspace or given project will contain all of the docks, links, notes tasks associated with that given project, and so you can save tabs to that project and, depending on what you're working on, you can switch work spaces and will swap out those tabs and it'll swap out, you know, all the different associated resources, like I just talked about, that are related to that project. So it's really there to help organize all of the work in the brows are, because browsers weren't really built for work to work out of her. They really weren't. They're built for browsing, and so we're Cona helps really helps make the browser built for cloud workers. It's what it is. That's awesome. We could stop right there and the show and I guarantee audience that have gotten something out of this. But I promise this is not just a pitch for the product. But I thought we should dig into it because it adds some context to what we're going to talk about when we dig into your campaign. But it's also just kind of a wow factor when you see it and you think, oh my gosh, this is something that someone should have done by now and it's excited. Yeah, you're doing that now. I can't fail to mention we've met before and is actually from that previous show that I interviewed you on when I was co hosting the beauty growth show, and we talked about an incredible campaign, maybe one of my favorite campaigns from one of my favorite companies. It was the Dogo video campaign on Youtube from Lucid Chart. So if you haven't seen this, just google lucid chart and Doggo. You'll see it. And this is some of David's work and it was a lot of fun to talk about that. But you're not at the multiple billion dollar valuation massive behemoth out of Utanny more you're part of a small and mighty...

...team. Talk me through why you made that leap. WHO's a big one. I know you had a lot of good friends and folks at Lucid that you were working with. What was the impetus for you to make that leap? Yeah, I mean I saw I was a lucid from a six years. Lucid Chart Incredible Company, great product, of course, and also a great company to work for, because there's not a lot that would maybe have a allowed me to run with the campaign built around Dogo diagram videos. Yeah, it's a hard that's a hard thing to convince, you know, a CMO or marketing executives to run with. And so yeah, I was very, very happy there, but I also had to desire to be a part of something from the ground up. And in fact two of my co workers from Lucid Chart, now they had left years before I had, but I had I'd worked with them a Luci Chart. They were, you know, stellar, awesome, awesome people to work with, and they had started workona. So those are the two cofounders and so they had reached out to me. I'd actually just left lucid chart to join another company in San Francisco. Is Kind of interesting. I'd left to join them and immediately after my two former Luci Chart Co workers reached out and they said how we didn't know you were ever going to leave lucid. If we would have known, we would pitch you on joining our start up. And I was like, yeah, I just joined a new company, like let us put you anyway. And so they pitched me work CONA and I had that same responsive WHOA, this product makes most so much sense, this could be very useful, and so I joined them as the third person the team. Now we're a team of eleven. So, like you said, small but mighty, and so it was an opportunity to work with some of the great folks I'd worked with the lucid chart on something new. So that's amazing. Well, it makes sense. I think there's going to be a lot of folks in our audience who were going to feel similarly and look for those opportunities. So it's good to hear. You had the right people, you have the right product. It was a perfect opportunity for you. Sounds like a great fit and I'm sure you've got many years to come at work on a was successful campaigns. Let's dig into a campaign right now. You were telling me before the show that this was one that required kind of turning on a dime and being willing to drop other projects to run a project. So so set this up for us.

Tell us what was the scenario that you ran into? Yeah, so a little more background on on we're CONA, and I promise this isn't just a product pitch, but I talked about we'Recona and the workspaces that we have containing, you know, all of the work associated with a given project. Well, we quickly found out as we were building out work CONA that, you know, people would have ten, five, twenty workspaces, which is awesome. But in each workspace you could have a several tabs and that quickly basically eat up all of the Ram. Under chrome is famous as a memory hog, right. So all of the Ram and a computer would just be shot and if things would run really slowly. So we built in what we call Tab suspender functionality or tab suspension functionality right within were Cona so people basically things could run smoothly and efficiently and kind of in the background. And so you could have all the tabs still open and they at least appear open in all of your workspaces, but we wouldn't allow them to load. So the Ram wasn't being sucked out. So it was a necessary feature to build in just to make sure everything could run smoothiest. People are switching between workspaces and you know so. Anyway, there are products out there. Often it's chrome extensions that are built specifically for just tab suspension functionality. One of those is called the great suspender. It's the most popular one, or was the most popular one, and it has been around for some time and a lot of people rely on the great suspender to suspend those tabs from using memory. Well, since we had the functionality, it's obviously not the core part of our Cona, but it was. It's an important feature for us to run efficiently. So we you know, as a marketing team, we have that functionality. So we wrote out different landing pages around our TAB suspender, a function it's built in. So you know, we certainly wanted that's a keyword that has some volume right, so we of course had created content for that. Well, in the middle of this was earlier this year in the I believe in February, we were in the middle of work about to launch this big campaign and we had all of these things going on with the product that were really exciting but it was. We were really, really busy and generally I...

...start my mornings by checking our stats, traffic, what's going on, real time data, just to just get a lay of the land. You know, some because some days can be crazy, and this day in February was one of those days. We had noticed that there was a tremendous amount of traffic on these landing pages that we had written about Tab suspender, our tab suspender feature, and it was very confusing to me at first. So I was like what, there are so many people that are landing on this page right now, the real time data end, and signing up and converting, and I was bewildered. And so of course I checked twitter and I googles, like what is something going on with the TAB suspender, and I learned that Google, or the chrome web store specific quickly had flagged the great suspenders malware. I guess it had changed hands of ownership and something had happened and they had fight that as malware and basically removed it from their APP store. And so all of these people, potentially millions, they have a lot of people that had tabs open in chrome. Essentially they were rendered useless. So they lost their work. Their tabs all of a sudden just did not open and people were freaking out and they were googling for an alternative to have a tab suspender and and so they were coming into work CONA. And so that morning we had to have a quick call with like, okay, there we have people that are panicking and they're looking for a TAB suspender. Now, we are not a tab suspender, but we offered tab suspension as one of our features. And so as people in that early morning started signing up, it was clear that they didn't they weren't looking for all the feature they weren't looking for the workspaces and the TAB management part of Work Cona and all those things, and so they were initially confused because they're just looking for a suspender. That's all they wanted. And so the thing is is those people that are looking for a tab suspender they're often like me, like they're cloud workers working in the cloud across different cloud applications, and so there really are target market, even if they're not looking for a solution like we're Cona specifically. So we gathered together as a team and thought, okay, do we drop everything again? We're really busy at the time we dropped these projects and try...

...and split out that TAB suspender functionality and have it own, have its own sign up flow, its own channel and try to bring these blen again would be free. So we bring these people in and we would have users that we know could benefit from Orcona, even though they're not looking for it. And so one of the beauties of working at a small but mighty start up you have the agility to make these decisions and pivot, and we did so. Dev jumped on it. Of course we everyone that has the normal work. Nothing changed for most of the nothing changed for current users. Tab suspension worked as it normally did, but we split it out as its own a kind of in a way, its own product, and dot just really try to capture as much that traffic as possible. And so it was amazing to see how much of an appetite there was for this and it gave us an opportunity to Workna to then, you know, little by little, pitch them on the core workona product, to try to get them from using just the TAP suspender to the rest of it, because really it's you know, when people see we're Kinda we find when they actually see it in action, like on someone else's computer. They quickly get it and they realize like, okay, this is useful and it's going to be useful for me. And so we've had tremendous success converting those people who came in from that TAB suspender unique flow to adopting the rest of the the WORKONA experience. And Yeah, it was just I'm really glad that we made that call when we did, because it's worked wonders for us. That's fantastic. Now I'm going to go back a few layers to the very beginning. We said you start your day with looking at the data real time. Where are the anomalies? What are we not paying attention to? What are we this or what do we need to pay attention to? That right there, that's just a good habit. When did you start that? Where did that come from? Yeah, so that's I mean, that is I will say him my professional mentor. I will say is it? It's a man named Dave grow he is the the President and CEO of Lucy Chart. He taught me this because I remember when I first start working at lucid chart, you know, I would get emails in the morning where he had mentioned things that he noticed or those anomalies or,...

...and sometimes it could be a concerning thing, like Oh, I notice things are down here. We have any idea what might be causing that? Or would be positive, like Oh, we're seeing surges here. Let's dive in, let's figure out what's happening, what's going on that I absolutely learn that from him. He's the master at that and it's like it makes all the sense in the world now to me. I can't imagine not starting my day that way because the things you find and the opportunities you can find. It it's not every day, but when they do happen it's invaluable. Yeah, I think that's the key right, is that it's not supposed to happen, so you pay attention to it for the off chance that it does happen. It's brilliant. I myself look at the data regularly, but I wouldn't say with any consistency to the time of day. And now I kind of just want to add that to my morning. I'm just going to run through my dashboards and see what I've got. That's a fascinating start. So like a great takeaway. You notice something and what was the decision making criteria. How did you make that choice to say, yes, we're going to abandon what we're working on heavily today, kind of knowing what you knew about the great suspender? How did you come to that conclusion? What was the tradeoff that you're making? Yeah, great question. You know, the tradeoff was it was time. We still did everything we were normally going to do, just had to push it a little bit. You know, it was this, again, is great about having a small team. I hop on a call with our CEO and CTO, the two cofounders. We all are, if we're all seeing what's happening at this point and we all realize how big of a deal the great suspender was and how this could be big for us. Yeah, but the thing is, it seems like a no brainer in retrospect to have chased this. Sure, but as a start up there are a million different things you can spend your time doing, a million different things to focus on, and oftentimes the difference between a success will start up and an unsuccessful one is how you make that call and when you make that call. And so we have these conversations that again, like I said, it seems like a no brain in retrospect. But still then it's we don't know what's going to work. Is this wise use of our time? and honestly, didn't take us that long in this case to make the call. And a lot of it had to do with this, just this sheer amount, the...

...volume of traffic and how many people were I mean to twitter was talking about it like crazy's great suspender started trending, the verge was writing articles about like you know what to do if you use the great suspender. It really it was one of those things that really popped in the, I guess, the Tech Cultural Zeitgeist, you know, like the twenty four hours, I guys, I guess, and so that certainly helped. But it did mean DEV resources and meant marketing and it was all hands on deck. And so it was a conversation between the three of us and the like. I said it and take it didn't take long, maybe a fifteen minute conversation. Is like, okay, let's chase this. It was it's an opportunity with worth going for. That makes sense. You know. We had Susan Patel from mail shake and several other companies he owns on and he talked a little bit about just running the numbers, just looking at the basic math of a thing you're proposing to do, and it seems like volume alone would have given you. Hey, even if we are only able to tap into a portion of this and provide some value to those people, the volume alone is there, that there is some number that makes sense, that we're not crazy and that makes sense. It was only a fifteen minute conversation versus, you know, having to elaborate on this and maybe spend multiple meetings, you could really pivot quickly. Now one of the great challenges you just mentioned is that a lot of times in an early stage company, even later stage companies, is just there's so many distractions disguised as opportunities. It's a lot harder at the early stage because you have so few resources to dedicate to anything. One of the key things that I've shared with marketing teams I've managed in my current marketing team, is there's no fires in marketing right we should be planned ahead, we should be thoughtful, we should be coordinated that if things shouldn't be on fire, somebody shouldn't be able to come to us and say, Hey, I had this idea and then suddenly everything else is shut down, except in the case of this extreme value. So I guess that's just the key here is is being able to balance that and looking at what are the tradeoffs. And I like what you said is you just did it later. It wasn't that, hey, we've abandoned ship and now we're going to be a different product or we're going to do a different thing. It was just, well, we're just going to move that down the road a little bit. Notts like a fair trade off, given what the you know, the get was from that.

That's awesome. Yeah, well, I'm sure that you've learned a ton from that experience that you've carried to other work in recent months. Care to elaborate on any of that what you've learned from that experience? Yeah, absolutely. Well, it was really unique because with Workona, I mentioned how a lot of it is embedding ourselves in the browser to to make the browser more viable for working in the cloud, and so there we have a lot of different features that are kind of similar to the taps of spender feature, where we built it in this part of the core product. But we took a look at it and thought, could we split out any of these features in a similar way with their own sign up flow, or go after a specific target that's looking for just this thing and can we capture traffic that way and then try and again. The hope is to migrate them into the can we convince them or taught without being too pestering with emails and in Product Proms? You know, we want them to have a good experience no matter what part of the product they're using. But can we have success persuading them to migrate into all of we're kind of because we find once people really see the the workspaces and being able to switch, you know, we're contextually depending on the project. You know, being able to switch it people really really love it. And so because of the great suspender, that whole fiasco for them but opportunity for us. We saw that it could work. We had a lot of the market migration come over. It contributed to any normal as part of our sign ups, certainly q one and so and it continues to build fruit because it's been a fruitful channel. So we've done that. Now for a handful of other features. I mentioned in workspaces that you can have docs and links, but you can also have tasks and notes and so we have this wonderful tasks feature that allows people to create a task out of the TAB that they're on. So, you know, you could be on a tab and like I want this. You can log a task and it attaches that tab but to that task, and so it's like its own task manager. So we decide to do something similar there. It's a part of the core products. They'll but people that are wanting a task manager that's built specifically for the...

...browser or built for people that work across a different or a lot of different cloud apps like this would be built for specifically for them, because there's no end, there's no end of task managers. There's a million APPs. This is specifically built for people who work in the browser and so we decided to do that. Similarly, built split out that functionality, have its own sign up flow and we've been able to, you know, replicate a lot of the success there as well, and so it's become, you know, part of our product strategy and marketing strategy is finding more ways to split out those features and bring people in again eventually into the whole whole product. Well, I think this makes a lot of sense for anyone working in an innovative product, anything that maybe there's not a lot of specific search volume or there's not a lot of conversations happening online for exactly the way they do what they do, but there are a lot of lated conversations happening with some facet of their product. So I'll I'll mention from open sense we have email signature management and while some people are searching for that, a lot of people are searching for email signature generation or creators. So if there's some way to split off the fast of that product. And those are just, you know, two of our examples here between our two companies, there are many more where we're going to find that little bit that people are having a lot of conversations with, you know others about online that maybe we can tap into. I love that idea. It's cool that you went from just doing it once to saying wait, can we do this again, and it became a part of your strategy. That's awesome. What channels did you use? I'm curious, especially on this first round, as you were evaluate, okay, we gotta attack this, what channels were you using? Where were you going? How are you getting that traffic to come over to you? Obviously already had some of those landing pages build. I'm sure there was some search that was coming to you, but how did you grab a hold of that? Yeah, it's a good question. You know, you talked about trying to find those terms that are adjacent but maybe aren't exactly what your product offers, and we're going to you know, like I say, it's a solution that everyone thinks it's a no brainer, but people don't know the solution exists, so they're not really...

...searching for it. There's no there's not a lot of keyword volume. So yeah, yeah, so a lot of it is going after that, like what the people are looking for. That are that's close, close enough at least, and so it is a lot of the landing pages. It's certainly that. So we like the example of the task manager, right, there's a lot of volume around that, of course, but we treated marketing, that sign up flow as if it was own its own product, and so of course we build out the pages, we built up the content, made landing pages and we would try and go after where people are looking for that, you know, whether that's where those conversations are happening, where those ads, and we don't. We don't. We haven't run any paid ads. Everything. We've actually never spent a dime the thus far on add on actual advertising advertising. It's all been organic growth content, etcetera, etc. And so that's, you know, that's also the part of being a nimble startup. It forces you to be creative, and so, yeah, we were trying to cut a lot of that traffic. We would try and capture organically, you know, different APP stores, different places where we could be present, were could be viewed. Well. I mean one challenge of that is maintaining that the work you know, and making sure that the workona brand would it was clear what we're KNA was as a product. We didn't want to be too fragmented for people didn't think like, Oh, we're KNA is just a tap supender or worknea is just a task thing. We wanted people you know. So there's that challenge as well, but so far that that's we've seemed to have mitigated any issues there. But yeah, that's we would treat each one of these sign up flows as if its own product and try and find that target market where they're currently searching. That's probably simplest way I can put it and who was most responsible for making sure that the brand value is clear and that it's not just a tab suspender or it's is that more marketing or is that more product? or You guys kind of split that even. Yeah, it's certainly marketing. I mean our CEO, Quinn Morgan, his background is in product. He's a product manager at lucid chart and so he's certainly product fos got, but he has great interest in marketing and certainly a lot of knowledge there as well, and so he's definitely a part of those conversations. But when it comes to like, I guess the institutional responsibility that...

...that's that would fall in on my team in marketing is to make sure that it's clear, that the brand, you know, that what we actually are is still clear. And Yeah, that was one of the only concerns we had approaching this strategy, was to make sure people associated the work cone and name and brand with the core product. And Yeah, that's it's all in the marketing. Well, that's awesome. To more subtly you can do that while giving a positive brand experience and product experience, I'm sure, the easier it is to get them to convert over to the other side, since you've clearly aligned to the right buyers, that maybe they weren't looking for this, but those are the right people, those are the people who would want to use WORKONA in the end. Definitely. Yeah, well, that's wonderful. Obviously this is impacted, you know, a lot of your strategy, which is really exciting to see and I'm sure the audience is going to really appreciate. Now let's zoom out from this and looking at whether it's early stage or from your experience at Lucid, charter or other places, what's something that you see in the market place that a lot of maybe growth marketers are doing that they shouldn't be doing, or maybe just something that they're not yet doing that they should start doing? Let me think about that. So, yeah, it's a big question. Now. No, I mean that's that's the question. So something that they're not doing that they should be doing, yeah, or that they should stop doing it they're already do. Yeah, maybe this is more product than specific to growth marketing, but you can get pretty carried away and growth marketing it's very easy if the data is telling you to go a certain way, to go a direction that would be not very positive for the user experience and at this is not a unique problem to have. But, for example, I've worked at the company in the past where they found that if they implemented the system on a marketing landing page where the Cursor, and maybe you've seen this before, or the cursor goes off the page to go to another tab, they can automatically pop up a pop up that says but wait, where you going? You know, and it's like it's very alarming, it's very intrusive and their data, the Ab test, will tell you it works a hundred percent of the time. It's great, people are, you know, made out a hundred percent of the time, but the...

...data will say that people will interact with that pop up or they might stay on that page longer or maybe they're even more likely to convert. Right. What's tough there is there's no real great a B test on effects to your brand and the perception people had. Certainly there's ways of measuring perception of brand, but directly correlating that with some of the more gimmickey growth marketing tactics that I've seen, it's really hard to correlate those two things and so a lot of times that's a gut call, but it's still a thing that I'm seeing where it's I just don't know if people are being as cognizant as they shared about the effects of these. Your experience in marketing, not even just in product, but in marketing with your brand, and making sure that you're not adversely hurting your brand because the Ab test is saying you are actually converting more people. That's a short that potentially could be a short term when with some long term consequences. I like that one a lot because it truly is a part of your brand, what you decide to do, and getting people to participate or to get themselves involved in your product or your brand or your content absolutely is a part of your brand and it tells a story about, Oh yeah, are even if you don't think it does, even if the data is what you're excited about, it's actually that experience of matters and you can use that as the edge of the knife, as I like to say, yes, we'll do this, or no, we want like our brand doesn't believe in that, even if it's going to get us more registrations or longer time on page. I love that's a great reminder that the brand is so much broader than just the colors we use. And you know, the design of the logo and the landing page are so much to it and it's the decisions we make as as growth marketers, thinking about how to attract the that audience and convert them. That's awesome. Now on the other part of that question, but people should be doing this is I mean you talked about the Dogo campaign. At least you chart. Yeah, and that's a thing that leaf that idea is hard to pitch in a room before you seen the results, right, and the results were hundreds of millions of views. I mean it was like crazy what had happened, but before we knew how successful it was. It's just sounds silly. It sounds silly and I understand why an...

...idea like that is just so not going. It's just very unlikely to be a proved by, you know, marketing leadership, and with good reason. However, I'm a big believer in going for it. There are some crazy ideas and again you have to weigh the cost of how long or how much resources and those that is an important part, an important factor. However, I think people would be surprised sometimes with the ideas that might seem silly or a little bit ridiculous or way out there, can actually actually work, actually yield results that you would have never expected. Now it might take ten, twenty, a hundred bad ideas before you find that one, and maybe that is not a great use of time, but I do think sometimes it's it's okay once in a while to step out of your comfort zone and just go for with an idea that, like, might not make sense on paper, might be tough to pitch, but if you feel like there's a chance that this could work, kind of go for it. I know that I'm speaking kind of vague in this nebulous way, but again, the Dogo campaign is a really good example of something that, like, really sounds silly and isn't at all related to enterprise diagramming target market right, but it became so big that it didn't really matter whether it's catered to the core target market. It popped off so big that it was just any enormous success. So don't be afraid to get to creative, especially those of us that are in more be to be software anything like that. Oftentimes we treat it as a place where it's a little more stuffy or very business oriented, and we really have to be a certain way. This is the creative marketer in me. Now that's that's starting a vamp. But, but, but, like, don't be afraid to go for be a little funny. Maybe get a little bit silly if it's outside of the brand, a personat okay, maybe just do it once, once or twice, see what happens. Yeah, I think that's a key right, is if you're not experimenting, you're not learning very much. Exact growing. And boy, if you're not growing, you're not really a growth marketer. Your that's right. Now to just fill in a seat. Right, Yep, that's exactly. No, I love that advice and I'm sure many will take you up on that. And if you haven't seen...

...the Dago video, just for context, you should go watch it. It is while the concept isn't necessarily relevant to that target market, the way that you use and weave the product into it is so brilliantly natural that by the time it gets to the pitch at the very, very end of the video, it's like, Oh yeah, I guess. I guess I was watching a diagramming tool this whole time. It's very normal to see that and feels like, I don't know, make sense when you see it. It's awesome. I mean, last question here and one of my favorites. If you had double now you're very early stage right, very early stage company. If you had double the staff, the budget or the time, what would you choose and what would you do with it? Yeah, so we are. I mean we're going as a team is eleven. I guess there were small that marketing teams. There's three of us. Yeah, there are certainly some things at and activities we're doing now that I would double down on, areas that I know would only grow with more investment and a lot of that's the kind of normal marketing activities, but content and other things like that certainly would be. So there be some bit of that budget I would push towards that. The other part, honestly, I would do what I was just talking about, and that is getting creative. That's it's one thing where you really when you're this early on, you know there's so many different marketing activities you can do. It's really important to get down the core parts, you know, work those muscles out, figure out how to do seo, the the content. Get all that right. You know your email marketing. All that's very, very, very important. But I'm excited for the the phase of Racona where I'll be able to will be able to start to spread our rings in the more creative marketing aspects, and we certainly will when we get there, and that would likely when we get there is the scenario you're talking about. Double the budget and double the head count. I think we would start to get a little bit more creative with how we get ourselves out there. So I would invest on the creative side of things. Hopefully that's not too vague. Yeah, no, I think that's fair. I think that's fair. No, that's great. As we wrap up here, anybody you think we should be following? Obviously the team at lucid charge. Still some incredible marketers over there, still doing amazing things. Lots of folks to follow there.

I think Dave grow I followed him on Linkedin for years, of the CEO There and just a brilliant guy. In your mentor. That's awesome. Anybody else we should be aware of, maybe outside of the Luci Char World? Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad you specified because if you knew I was ready with the Dave grow recommend it. Yeah, I'd already mentioned him. Is He was right there. So he's gold. He's gone. You're not following a day of grow, follow day of grow. What are you doing? And he's not. And that's just stuff. That's not just marketing. He is a multifaceted he's they called like the five tool athlete, but in tech, and he writes a lot on link you at least used to write a lot on Linkedin, and there's some a lot of his writing and stuff is out there, and so I encourage people to to look that up and he has got some really, really unique inside. So of course that's where I'd go first. But outside of Lucid Chart Marketing, people to follow. This is a good question. There are several different brands and things where I keep my eye on and I take a look and a lot of the a lot of it is the big brands that people are aware of. I tend to look at the brands as a whole more than I do individuals. Sure, who are some of your favorites? Yeah, so I love Air Table, I love Pigma and I love Zappier Nice. I love everything's up here's doing. I will say that Wade Fosters, Theeo over there, good friend of ours. Their marketing is really a masterclass in content marketing and how they got their brand out there and what they're doing. And I'm not from I don't know the marketing folks there, I've never met or had conversations with them, but I greatly admire a lot of the strategies that they employ in the things that they're doing and so I follow them quite a bit. So if I don't, how familiar with Zappier? Oh yeah, well, exactly. Yeah, use them every day here. Oh yeah, okay, yeah, they're great. So that's a great brand. Wonderful. Well, those are some good ones. I really appreciate you joining us, David. Any recommendations to come after this will be sure to share in the show notes or we'll throw it out on social but thanks again, David, for joining us. Everybody who wants to follow where Kno, where do they go to find you guys online? Yeah, so we're ACOM. You can start there to check it out, or on all the socials where as well on twitter,...

...where it's out work CONA HQ as. You can interact with us there as well. But yeah, start, started work on Acom and right now the product is free. Will always have a free version. Will do monetizing in the relatively near future, but even after that we still will have a free tier that will allow you to use a majority of our features, and so I encourage people to check it out, especially right now out but while it's all free, I think people will be pretty surprised at how helpful it is with working in the cloud. Awesome. And and David, if we want to follow you, if we want to see online, where do you spend the most time? Yeah, where do I spend the most time online? I'm on twitter. At the D staff I talked a lot about the Sacramento Kings, so I apologize, but that's just a passion of mine and also a great source of pain. So if you want to follow me there and see me talking about sports, you could go there. But yeah, I'm mostly I'm I love twitter. Say I'm mostly on twitter. Awesome, awesome. Well, great, David, thanks again for joining us and we'll talk to you inside. It's a pleasure. Thanks, REX. Thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you would give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to get a little more inspiration for their next campaign. If you want to learn more about the company behind the show, had to open sensecom. That's open sky and skycom will catch you on the next episode.

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