Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 48 · 6 months ago

How Rachel Cottam Confronts Gender Bias in the Workplace

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We made a very special episode of Growth Marketing Camp in celebration of Women's Month. And we are delighted to have Rachel Cottam, Director of Editorial Strategy at Clearlink and passionate gender equality in tech advocate, join us. Rachel shares how to confront gender bias in the workplace, why companies should hire more women in leadership, and ways men can be better allies to women and help amplify their voices.

Ladies and gentlemen, tune in to this limited edition episode and help us fight the good fight together.

Welcome to growth marketing camp, or we sit down with our favorite marketers to do mystify growth and give you the insights to help turn your next campaign into a major success. Let's get into it. Hi, y'all, welcome to another it's setting episode of Growth Marketing Camp. Super happy to be joined by Rachel Coddam, currently director of editorial strategy at clear link and formerly Rachel. Last time she joined us, she was the content marketing manager at divvy. Thanks for joining US yet again. A lot has changed since you last joined us. I remember all the celebration and noise on Linkedin when you took the opportunity back in August. How has life been since then? Oh, it's been great. I mean it's been a roller coaster for everybody, but you know, we're in two thousand twy two now, so I'm hopeful. Exactly. I think the fact that you've also changed your roles and just like the world has been changing so much, and especially over the last what there. So it's like things are. I think the one stable thing that even I've noticed is work and focusing on doing good work and getting inspired by the people around you. So it's nice that you were able to make that shift during such a crazy time and I'm sure, like it's you made the shift in August, but I can imagine a lot has changed since then. Right now you are at clear link with a totally new role at a new company. Tell me a little bit about clearly. What clearly does and what you're specifically doing them. Yeah, so clearlink is essentially a media company. So we create brands or websites and then we grow them out or our primary strategy has been through organic traffic, but we're expanding to make sure we're hitting our own audiences as well. So the brand that I worked most closely with is business dot org as a director editorial strategy on specifically over bedd since that's been my background. Okay, awesome. And how did you end up getting introduced to the team at clear link? Where you were you actively looking or to kind of the opportunity just came about? It was an opportunity thing. In fact, the person who reached out to me Ashley Well Toad. I wasn't looking at the time and she just said he I think we have a role where you might be a good fit, and we'll speak to this a little bit more later. But one of the things that really sold me during the interview process was that I was interviewed by a panel of all women and I had never had that experience before Infintech or be tob it was totally unique and I was really excited about the fact there was a ton of smart, ambitious, kind women in the leadership group. So that's how they found me. First of all, that, unfortunately, even I have experienced like that is not a common thing. So the fact that you've explined experienced that and it was something different. It's like I've also been working in tech since I graduated university. Actually I've never had a panel of just women and leadership, especially in tech, and I think depending on what industry you're in, that could you. You might not even see women at all and some you might like. In ass it's mostly male dominated. Before Sass I was working in blockchain cryptoe all men, and there's some companies that are starting to change the way they hire women, but I always say it's very backwards. At least when I was working in Crypto, women are still almost used, especially at certain events, in a very much objectifying a little bit in that space, in the cryptical space, unless it's specifically a woman who is in leadership, which is still very, very rare. So the fact that you, you know this was a positive experience for you, shout out to clearly, first of all, how that I think that being interviewed by women and having women as a leadership is something that still a lot of women don't experience, and I know you've actually shared a lot of your experience and your journey being a woman in leadership and you've been very, very vocal on Linkedin. For that reason, and actually that's also why we wanted to invite you, is to understand kind of what your take, what your experience has been being a woman in leadership and and being vocal for other women. So I kind of want to focus on that for this conversation. I think there's a lot of females who listen to growth marketing camp, besides just also the women on my team and myself, who are very curious, and a lot of the men who are curious about understanding what it is that's going on and how can men also be allies, and I know that you have a lot to share on that. So first off, I just wanted to share what is your advice for women trying to get a seat at the table. But before that, why are you so interested, besides being a woman, in kind of advocating for women? Yeah, so this kind of beat going back to your last question, how I gotten this role? If we rewind even further, I was actually a high school English teacher. I taught English for three years and I really chose that role because of the culture that I grew up in. And I really grew up in this culture where the ideal was a woman at home and I thought, you know, I would get bored just being with kids all day. I knew that about myself before. We've been jumping into a career, but I chose a path where, one I knew women were. There were...

...a ton of women to teach you right. I knew that that was not going to be an area where I push up against that friction, like women can be teachers and mothers. That's accepted. But I also, in the back of my mind, always had that thought that, oh well, I need to be there to make dinner, I need to be there for dropping off at school. Like I had this really cultural expectation deep inside that I need to be a mother first, and I didn't think that all careers lent themselves to that possibility. And you know, fast forward out and years I've been married. My husband is a stayathome dad. I'm the primary breadwitter. COVID has changed so many things for the better as far as you know, where women can work remotely and the rest of the team is also working remotely, so it's not unique. It's not viewed as as a bad thing. COVID is also change things negatively for women, but we were have to dig in too much of that. But for me, I've really learned that women can do anything right and that women should never feel limited in the career paths that they choose based on the desire to be a mother too. I always knew I wanted to have kids or came from a big family, so I always knew that it was a priority for me to be a mom first. But I've been able to strike this balance where I am still a dedicated in present mother, but I'm killing it in my career, and the women that I've interacted with want that to write. They don't want it those things to exist separately. There is a way for those things to exist together and that's what really excites me about helping women to advance in the workplace is not feeling restricted by who they are, but empowered by the background that they bring to their teens. I absolutely, absolutely love what you shared because I see so many parallels between also culturally, what I grew up, the environment I grew up in. My family is very liberal. When you think about it, like with the conversation that I have with my dad, with my mom, very different than some conversations that my peers have a also, as an Indian woman, I grew up here in Canada, so it's not like, you know, we're growing up in an environment where certain expectations were bred into. Obviously, culture, society where you live changes, but considering even how liberal my family is, there are a lot of decisions that I made early on when I was graduating high school, thinking about my long term career, that were very much influenced by this almost this made up timeline. Okay, of okay, so by x age I will I should be married, by this age I should have kids, and I remember my dad has been such a positive influence of even like telling us, Hey, whatever it is you guys focus on, like be the best at it. You don't have to be a mother you. But still I remember almost having these conversations with my dad and say, why do you do why do you try to convince? Like me, I have a twin sister, so both of us like if we were interested in the medical field, and why did you dissuade us from that? Why did you just sweet it? I was more interested in law when I was graduating high school and I remember my dad used to say, well, you have to take into consideration you're going to get married, you're going to have kids, then all of this schooling is you know, there's no point, because then you're going to want to be a fulltime mother. I'm like why? Why could you know? How are you telling me that I have to lead, choose one role? But back then I kind of just went with it because it wasn't just him, it was just our society in general. So the fact that you also experience that, and obviously now you know I'm thirty two, I don't have kids, I am married out, but a lot of the timelines, original timelines I had, I started to push them back, but if they're still in the back of my head where, even as a woman in now a leadership position. I think that I can do both. I can only do one, so let me focus on one right now, and I'm absolutely love my career and I want to focus on that, but then I don't want to. I also am dealing with that that negative that feeling of if I have kids, will that change everything? So the fact that you're advocating for that and you're sharing your experience it is so empowering because, again, no one talks about it as much as they should and if they do, no one really hears about it. If women don't hear about it, how is anyone else supposed to? Yeah, well, I love that you shared your family was supportive, right, like my parents were this same way. My Dad used to joke like Oh, Rachel, she's either going to become the president of the United States or she's going to lead them mafia, right, like he just saw that that stubborn ambition in me, I mean. But still there was just like this cultural and societal understanding that women can work but they need to be mother's first. And as much as we think that that is gone away, it hasn't. Like pay parody is still a hundred and fifty, two hundred years in the future for women. Right, we still ask the question during interviews like, Oh, so, what are you going to do with your kids? Right, like all of these things, which one that's illegal? Right, that's it. We're still just like conditioned to ask women these questions about primary caregiving when really we don't know what their family circumstances look like. We don't know who's in the home, if there's more than one parent, if they're both working, if they'rere not, we don't know if they're having kids or if...

...they want to have kids. Right, all of these questions that society is just conditioning to ask women, they're holding at this back and we need to just find what works for us and for me having my husband, who is a stay at home dad right now, you know, like having him at home while I'm pursuing this career path. It's working. I don't know if it will work in three years. will re evaluate, right, but we shouldn't make these decisions based on what a company or an employer assumes of us. We need to that women make their own decisions for their career and then empower them to really chase those things and to do them. Well, yeah, I know, I love that. And you know what's interesting about one of the things that you mentioned is I remember having this conversation years ago. It was not something that I worked with, it was someone specifically worked in in HR and we were having almost like a bit of a heated debate for like after work dings or whatever once and this topic about women being paid less than men actually came up and I mentioned like why is that? You know, if you're in the same role as someone who's a male, your maial counterpart, you're in the same role, you basically the same responsibilities. There is a massive difference and you won't understand it until you actually have, you know, someone who's transparent and shares with you. And why is that? Why? Why does the pay discrepancy? And I remember they mentioned a couple of drinks in like well, you have to factor in the fact that they might go on maternity leave, they might go away for x while and then we're going to have to find someone else. And I was like Whoa like you're basically making that assumption, not to mention you act like other you know, people don't go on vacations, people don't take hiatus. How is this any different? And that was one of the things that's still stuck with me where I've thought, man, is this it? You know it, this came out right, but is this kind of the the feeling that most people have? And I believe that they do, but I mean it is it? One of the things you also mentioned was covid has negatively impacted women staying at home. Do you want to kind of share a little bit about that, because I'm not even sure how that would yeah, and I'm definitely not the expert on the research here, but I've seen the articles that I've emerged and I'm they start of Utah and Utah Women's leadership project had a recent briefs that they sent out about this that was so interesting. That it's basically because women are still socialized as the primary caregiver, they have had to take on so many of those additional responsibilities that remote learning or, you know, changes in date care schedules or if your kid gets sick with covid everybody has to quarantine for two weeks. Women have basically had to take on that burden and so because of that, burn out among women has increased. The desire for remote work has remained right that women have to be able to have some kind of flexible work arrangements. So anytime you're telling a woman that she has to be an office x number of days a week, that could be a deal breaker for her in the job. So it really is just that idea that caregiving burden has fallen to women first and that that is causing more burnout and attrition in the job market. Yep, no, I also see that too, and I think the unfortunate, which is still a fortunate thing right, it was one of our strengths as women to be the people that carry on the bullshil burden, with or without a man's permission, or whither or without your permission from our employer, is this feeling that we're going to give our all when we're working, but we're going to give our all, one hundred percent, absolutely like our emotional self or soul everything to make sure that the people in our home that we take care of, which is also again we forget of ourselves, and I see that from my mom, for example, and I see that from other women who are who are mothers, that not only that, they always put themselves last and they always put their kind of mental health last, because it's this feeling that's not only because society has chosen women to take on this role. Women themselves are taking on this role, and so I feel like everything that's happened with Covid, I've had lots of conversations with a lot of my friends and a lot of my peers who are also women, where it's like there's been so much they've had to deal with and the thought of even going and getting help or being folcal and and putting their hands up. They don't want to do it because they don't want to be perceived as weak, because they've fought so hard to be the position that they're at. They don't want to put their hand up and say, I'm feeling birds out because, you know, it's this feeling of like I'm finally in this position, I've worked so hard. Any sign of weakness, and this would be one of them, any sign of meat, just be showing some vulnerability, will be perceived as she doesn't deserve this, or maybe we need to bring someone else on board, even though men deal with the too. You know. Yeah, that brings to ight one of the things that actually male allies can start doing right away in order to help women, for feel more comfortable in the workplace. That stigma, that negative impact of talking about puriting is still something women are very conscious about and, like you, men should. We don't tend to own up to our burnout, especially if it's related to caregiving responsibilities, because we're afraid that will be taken less seriously...

...at work. So one thing that I loved telling mail allies to do is to parent out loud. If you are leaving work early for a dance recital, if your kid is homesick for the day and that's where you're working from home, then vocalizes that and when you share that you're doing those things because you're a parent first, that gives permission to the women in your workplace to do the same and it helps to normalize the fact that all parents are parents first and that those priorities should be shared among women and men, and that no one should be penalized because they're assuming those caregiaring responsibilities. Yep, again, I think that is so important that you mentioned that and I was actually one of my next questions. So I'm glad that you already touched on that, because I know you've shared a lot around linkedin for men being better allies. Fortunately, at least in this my small linkedin feed or the small world that I live in, I have seen more men also speaking out. There's a certain newsletters that I follow and even in the newsletter is still share that. Hey, you know, last weekend I did this towards the end of it. At these are male, their VP of marketing or they have a sea, sweet and above kind of roll, and they even talk about their family on twitter. I see that a lot, and so, at least compared to you, how it was five, almost five, ten years ago, I feel like people are now starting to merge their personal life into their professional life, which is how it should be. And for that reason, like a lot of times, people say keep even I remember the interview questions back in the day. How you respond to something personal? Do you bring it to work? And I remember that thinking also being hammered in my head, along with some of my peers, that when you're when you're at work, you have to one hundred percent show your like, have that smile, you are not allowed to be personally affected by anything that happens and no one is allowed to see that side of you. And you know, you understand that, based off of these kind of questions or if HR is talking to I remember one of my co workers back in the day. They ended up losing their grandma and they were going through a lot of brief and sorrow and after about like two three weeks, they actually had to have a conversation do you need to take more time off? And it was almost like an indirect feeling. They felt like, wow, is my job threatened because of this, because I'm not bringing my saint pet pie self to work. But to expect people, men and women, to one hundred percent, especially, I would even think, in the covid remote world, where you have to have your camera on and maybe you're just running around and you have your baby in the background, and this is feeling of I have to be on and present it, especially wh're not physically going to work anymore. But sometimes it could be more chaotic when you just finished, you know, feeding your baby or breaking up a fight between your kids. N You know you're having to immediately jump into a meeting like that and at you're a mother. So how is that experience been for you and are you seeing it especially now you're in a you're in a company where there were a lot of women who were on your panel and I assume there are a lot of women in your in Your Company and leadership. How has that environment been for you versus other places that you've worked in the past or other stories you've heard some other women? You know, I love your optimism around how the world has changed for the better. I think all the time about that viral video with the BBC newsmaker who's, you know, baby. And Yeah, I'm still not sure if it was a Nann yours life who was pulling, pulling the baby out in the in the camera. and that's just the norm now, right. Everyone on zoom will occ usually have a kid pop up or you know, frankly, I had a baby in June of two thousand and twenty and so I was in zoom calls with the camera off because I was nursing, like that was a reality for me and I felt so fortunate that I was able to do that because I had such an unique bond with that child that I didn't have with my two older kids, because I was home when that baby was growing and I was able to be that present parent, but I was still engaged. How Work Right, and so I think we have to understand that people's personal lives will affect their work and it will probably affect them for the better. You mentioned this a little bit earlier, but a lot of women who go back to work are doing so with some kind of sacrifice. Sometimes it's a financial sacrifice that they're literally paying to put their kids in daycare so that they can go back to work. So you can bet that the woman who is paying to be at work is going to invest more in her job and do more in the office then the man who just showed up that morning right, and so there's definitely that financial sacrifice that we're learning to value. There's also women who are coming, you know, back into the workplace after a large career gap, and I think that we're starting to unpack that a little bit too and destigmatize career gaps for men or for women and say there was something else going on in their life at the time. Let's ask them about it again, let's not make assumptions. Let's ask them what was happening and maybe it was they were going through a grief period or maybe they had something with their mental health that they had to step away from the Office for a little bit, and let's normalize that and say thank you for taking care of yourself...

...first so that you could bring your best self to work. You made one point that just absolutely stuck with me, the fact that the women who are paying, after you know, they've given birth, to come back to work, they are showing up and they are hundred percent committed and focused. I have to say when, especial, I'm in Vancouver. So just finding, and this is conversations again I've had with a lot of my co workers, finding day cares that are available is such a struggle here, and I'm sure it is if it's here. It's all obviously like every wealth and the little and the amount that day cares are charging right now. I remember having a conversation with light with my coworker, and she said it like she had her second child and her first child was just a couple of years older, so she needed a daycare for to take care of both of her kids, and I remember she actually was very well contemplating just completely ending her career because of the cost. It cost more to pay for day give than for her to continue working. She would have lost money if she decided to come back to work. Yet she found put her name on every weightlist that she could in the city, relied on her parents who were also working. So I remember she was trying to jump through as many hoops as she could and I was as a woman and as someone who's hearing the struggle. You know, I also not a mother, so maybe this is why I didn't think about it that, wow, look at how hard she's working to try to put herself into were almost putting herself into debt to work. When she comes back, and she had left, she went on maternity leave, and I remember when she came back, even the and I hate to say this, what lift the perception of the people and the conversations that I would hear as someone who's just like listening in on what's going on. It had changed and it was almost like we were preparing, where the company was preparing that, oh, she's not going to come back. You know she's got she's got two kids now, which doesn't make sense. So there were some changes that were actually happening in structurally with her team, not with under the assumption that she was not going to come back and if she was, they were not going to be working with her to keep her there. And it is such a horrible thing to think, to think back, and I know she did not actually end up staying there a long which he did. I was gone before she did come back, but that is just one specific scenario that I was able to witness. I understood her struggle, I witnessed the stuff happening behind the scenes before she left, and then I also understood that she did not stay long in that company. So whether it was because they made it impossible for her to stay or they had changed it so much and didn't respect the fact that she had built the team up to where was at and they took advantage of the opportunity of her time off. So basically, Hey, let's rearrange things and because she's not saying long, made that's that is so disrespectful and very depressing and the fact that women are dealing with this. So that's just one one part, and I'm sure you've heard lots of stories. Being in a position where you're actively advocating for it because you understand, you experience it right and you're you're speaking to so many women. Besides, now you've heard my experience, something that I've I've heard, but I guess how did people, especially when you know you're pregnant and you're going on a treaty leave. Do you have any advice from what women can do to set themselves up? I know this is a very complicated question, but I know you're laughing, so you've pully. Yeah, I'm laughing because it's it's a systemic issue, which maybe I should't laugh at systemic issues right, but it's something none of us have solved and one of the things that I've seen companies do really well is to increase the time of a maternity or patrinity leaves, and I've actually see not be an indication of higher attention, and so giving people the space to do that and do that efficiently, I think is huge. I'm also laughing because that story you shared of the woman who came back from maternity leave, it wasn't taken it seriously. With this most recent and pregnancy that I had, when I came back from maturnity leave, I had a new boss, so my boss literally changed while I was out on Maternity League and I felt like I had to come back and, in my first one on one with this boss, advocate and say, listen, I'm not going with me anywhere, like I eve invested. I felt like I was beating a dead horse because I literally was trying to secure the fact that I wanted that job and that I was going to keep doing that job well, and I should have had to advocate for a job I already had. But I felt that pressure because I have seen that happened to so many women around me that it's like, oh, she's having a baby, she's probably not coming back, you know, she's probably just going to take the leave, work for a week and then be gone, and that's most of the time not what women want to do. And if that is been great, let's support them and their family, but if they're making that choice because we're driving them out, that is not okay. So it as far as your question, what advice do I have for women? I don't think I've solved it, but for...

...me, leaving with a clear plan in place is really helpful, saying here are the things that I was owning, and hear who, here's the person who should be owning each of those things and when I come back I'll take them back right if possible. When there are extended maturnity leaves, I've seen companies successfully bringing contractors to cover for that role. So it's not that we're replacing them, but that woman doesn't feel the guilt. I know for me I felt a lot of guilts with my last leave. That was like, Oh, I'm not doing my job right. I'm getting paid, but I'm not doing my job. And like, again, that fear shouldn't be part of the conversation. It should be about building a healthy work culture that values everyone's individual life experiences and supporting them in what they need to feel successful at work and at home. No, no, so it's funny, and you mentioned to even like I was laughing thinking about it, because the laughter isn't even that we're laughing at how big of an ISS is. So almost this feeling of this is larger than life. Well, single like it's not even that. What can women do to prepared? Maybe the conversation should be how can companies help women not feel that, because even I remember, it is not only just related to kind of companies setting it up and making their their whether it's paternity leads that FAMNA's leaving or maternity leave, they should be working with them and let them know that, hey, here's everything that we need from you and at the end of the day. These businesses, these companies, they have built, they have put these practices in place, whether it's like six months maturity leave, are eight months or eighteen months. I'm seeing some people are are starting to do that. More companies are helping women freeze their eggs. We supposed to like so obviously it's is. It is a hiring tactic to to get, you know, quality candidates to apply. But if you're going to have these kind of processes in place, make sure that you are actively letting people know that it is there for them to use, not that. So there's this underlying guilt that a woman feels, because that guilt that you're feeling is, you know, because of the way society has set itself up for women. And it is super depressing that you mentioned that. Do because I actually had a conversation last week with a friend who set out loud that, oh, Soandso is actually going to be taking eighteen months off. We're there's there's no chance they're coming back, and I remember I kind of didn't really register. Now I'm thinking, I'm like, Hey, you know why to say that? What did you say? They're not going to come back. You know, do you know that they're not going to come back, but this is an assumption that, whether you're a male or female, you have that and I think it's instead of just having women have to build a plan and say, look, this is everything I'm planning on doing to hand off my responsibilities to this contractor or to this person, here's everything I'm going to take over. That's still you're putting on the onus, on the woman again, to to do more than she needs to do that and it's it is depressing. And again, why? You know where? And we talking about this our letters. o making me a little making me fired up, because I like me. Now everyone has to look at women to offer the solution when they have built the process, and they should make it easy, just like they make it easy for for men. So one of the things you also mentioned, because you are a mother of three, I'm curious what is a mother's superpower that you have seen, specially being a mother, whether it's in leadership or you're just like an individual contributor or your marketer, what is something that you see differently that mothers do that you haven't seen you know other people do? Yeah, honestly, Mother's have no limb of superpowers, from convincing their children to eat Broccoli to remembering where last night's homework went. Mothers just have these innate abilities that are are incredible and companies should be trying to capitalize on that. But for me, the reason that companies should hire more women, it really is twofold. First, there's a bottom line impact for the companies. I believe mckinzie's latest reports said that companies with diverse with a diverse employee group, see a bottom line revenue increase of twenty percent. Like there is an actual increase in your bottom line when you are hiring more women, right, and women from different backgrounds. To write, like, I'm recognizing that I'm speaking from a position of a lot of privilege. I am White, I'm straight, I'm educated, and so I can speak to some of these challenges. But there's so much more exacerbated when you know you take away one of those positions of privilege. And so for me I'm seeing that like, yes, we need more women in the workplace, but the the number of twenty percent of females on executive team, so in the sea sweet, is even less for women of color. So there's only six percent women of color represented in the sea sweet. So this is something we need to do better across the board and companies really will see their revenue increase. They'll see more innovation, they will see improvements in product design, they will see improved customer relationships. Like there's really no shortage of benefit for a company to hire more women. And then the second thing that I...

...was what I was going to speak to is why companies should hire more women is that women like we were talking about, they're paying to be there, so they are going to be well and specifically mothers, as you ask, mothers are often paying to be there, so they're not going to give less than they're all they are committed to their jobs, they know the cost that they're paying financially, emotionally, interpersonally with their children and they are committed to thriving in those roles. So the message for women that I would share is that you can do it. You know you don't have to know everything to start. Don't talk to yourself out of a job because of career pressure, or or societal pressure, I should say, because of lack of confidence. Whatever. You know enough right and you can learn. So I don't know that answers your question. I'm sorry spoken, but he totally does use you thing. It totally doesn't. I had the question prepared and as I'm saying and I'm like yeah, you know, I ask someone who has a mother, as someone who knows women who are mothers, they are one of the hardest working human beings to walk on planet earth. They definitely are. They are compassionate, they are hard working, they are incredible multitaskers, but if they focus on a single task they are absolutely killing it. And it's another interesting thing that I had actually read this stat last week about women in leadership, the women who are leading countries and the covid response, and what they actually found was the countries that were led by women actually had better e could a nomical and health effects than than the countries that were led by men. Less people died. Responses for each country and each region was so much more it was planned out and those countries also were able to open up much faster. So you can take a look at this later on because I don't actually have this re the study pulled, but there was it marked difference between the men who led those countries and the effect and the impact that had on that country economically, socially and just healthwise, versus women. So you take something like that a context that obviously we're all very familiar with, very what we're currently dealing with. But in each, you know, single scenario you now you are focusing on just women working with different companies. The way women lead their teams is very different than the way a man will lead his team. The way women are speaking to the men on their team and the women are their team is very different than a man who is speaking to the women and the men on their team. And then how they collaborate cross functionally, how they collaborate with other teams. As someone who has been on a team with mostly men, if in past companies in like some companies around like thank God, I know who working there anymore, and it is so different. It is so, so different than when you're actually being led by a woman and unfortunately you're not. Well, I haven't heard a lot of men say my you know, my manager, who was a female, actually did this differently. I hear women say that all the time because they understand, because they have to deal with the impact of it more of some the preconcepts or the judgment right from from their managers and it's something that we're sensitive to, but fortunately, seems like it's something that a lot of a lot of men are starting to pick up on, because men also have wives, right they have wives who are mothers and they're starting to see that and I've noticed even the companies that have kind of younger leadership, for example, who have females in their lives that are working towards trying to build their career, they are witnessing that and they are advocating for it and more so than a lot of the companies have worked at that have much older don't. Again, I don't want to generalize, but it's very, very different. Like, for example, at open sense, the team is so much more kind of sensitive to hey, let's not man'splain, let's not do that, less ask. So they'll do that here at open sense because a lot of the people on our team they also have women who are in the careers, in the middle of their careers, in the middle of growing their careers, and I think that that's a huge dip from so at least younger companies are starting to realize that, especially places in tech, they're starting to understand that some tech little less so a little bit more backwards than what we're seeing now. But again, when I'm on my linkedin feet, I see mostly men talking and mostly it's always it's just looks like a single type of person that's sharing, and that's also kind of on women to be more confident and to drop the assumptions that they have for someone like me. I remember the first time I ever posted on Linkedin, it was like, oh my gosh, you know, what do I have to say that it's important to other people, because I only see established men who are sharing. It's like compare myself, that my career, to them right where they're, you know, managing the marketing team of like thousands of people, and it's like what do I have to say that's more valuable than that person? And it's that's also so that kind of goes into this idea of impostition, in which I also said most women deal with. I am a proud you know ad I will probably say I totally deal with it right now. I used to keep it like I remember, I used...

...to keep those insecurities in design me and it wasn't until even my husband, when he would listen to me's like wow, what why do you? Why are you like you need to be more confident, and he's like you like the stuff that you're sharing is so valuable. I want you to see with more conviction and I'm like, wow, you actually can you can you tell? And he's like, you're almost apologetic sometimes. And he used to say that to me like two three years ago, and since then, understanding that and hearing someone share that, I've actively started saying, you know what, if I feel nervous about I'm going to share, I'm going to share it allowed the shore with my team, because I never had that when I had managers. It was all people always seem like they always knew what they were doing and they never had an air of doubt. And that just messes you up so much because you think I'm the only one, but it's not until I speak to and one of the things we're doing it open sense. We're actually reaching out to specially women, and we're asking them that question. How do you deal with this? How do you get out of your head more and there are women who are, for example, one of the one of the girls I suppoke to, she leads a team at hub spot. She's got a massive following and she's like, I deal with it every day. So my question to you is, how do you deal with imboster syndrome? And I'm sure you have a you understand it. A lot of women second guess themselves. So your thoughts on that? Yes, and Jazz, you touched on so many important things, and that I might actually go back a little bit. The first thing that you shared around the covid responses, especially when there were women involved. There's a resource. It's a book called invisible women by Carolyn creato Perez, and that is when I would recommend to every woman in and out there who wants to understand more about how the system is really broken. And the reason I thought of that is because there's a chapter about disaster responses and that when government's had least one woman on the disaster response team, that it was just so much more successful. Right. So you can start small, just bike including one person in that conversation, and that actually helps build confidence on your team and makes space for more women and diverse perspectives to make an impact. The second thing that you talked about was posting on Linkedin and how we're all terrified of that. I have been posting on Linkedin probably a year, maybe a year and a half. Now, every time I post I feel that tidge of imposter syndrome. And who am I to develop a following on linked it feels so cheesy, like so didactic. Why am I in here sharing my story? But without fail, most vulnerable posts always result in at least one person reaching out to be, whether it's a man or a woman, and saying thank you for sharing your story. I feel that too, and that's the reason I keep posting, despite feeling ridiculous sometimes, for what I share is that there are other people who are struggling to find confidence in their roles or who feel like it's interesting. I've had a decent number of people who say, Oh, my husband's considering being a stay at home dad, but he didn't know that was an option. Right. So we're actually empowering families across the spectrum to find what works best for them when we're willing to share what works for our story. So, when it comes to that question of self doubt, finally, coming back to what you actually ask me, the truth is that I don't always overcome self doubt. I don't always overcome that Imposter Syndrome one of the habits that Sally Hillcison mentions that holds woman back is this tendency to ruminate and when we say something stupid, we just replay it in our head over and over again, and I can say without a doubt I have had one of those moments right now in this conversation with you. I know what I've said, something wrong, I know it's my foot in my mouth, but when we're talking about challenging issues, that's bound to happen. And so if we're going to be the people who raise our hand and say, Hey, this isn't working or that was a sexist comment. Can you rephrase that? If we're going to be those people to raise our hand, we can't allow ourselves to ruminate on it. We're going to make mistakes and that's okay. We're in the arena right we're fighting the battle and we're taking on ourselves this responsibility to be the voice and and when we voice our concerns, it's not always going to be perfect, it's going to be messy, but I try and tell myself do when I feel proud of that moment, was I was I present, was I coming from a place of love and if that's the case, then I try and move on. Like I said, it doesn't always work. I'm still ruminating over a podcast I went on last week and all the stupid things that I said. But if we have to just lean in to ours, our strengths, while acknowledging that we have gaps and end that we're going to say things in not the best way. Yeah, well, thank you so much for answering all of my questions. Also, thanks for even sharing that you still deal with that, because if you're like, Hey, I've totally overcome a jazz like, I feel super confident every single tex, I'd be...

...like, wow, that's a meat problem men. I I'm not sorry, I'm gonna interrupt you just really quickly because if you haven't read this article, it's on Harvard Business Review. It's called stop telling women they have imposter syndrome by Richiekatultian and jody and bury, and if you have not read it, it is such a good step back in framing how imposter syndrome is not just a woman issue, but it is primarily a systemic issue and it's just another way that traditional hierarchies and companies and traditional societal family structures have forced women into this place where they have a lack of confidence and that we're not welcoming these different leadership styles. And one of the things I love that Ruchika talked about recently is how when we hire people for Culture Fit, that that's actually coded bias. It's a way of us saying we want you to be like us, and she says we actually need to hire people for Culture ad and what can we bring to the team that doesn't already exist? So if we're bringing in people who have different perspectives, you're always going to feel a little bit of that tension of I don't sound like everyone else here. I have a different background. I don't know if I'm actually good at what I'm doing, but the fact is you are adding value by pushing through those feelings of impostor syndrome that it wasn't there before. You are adding to this culture where there's systemic problems we still need to break down, but you are making a positive impact. Yeah, yeah, I know, I love that. One of the things that you shared that you still do is room made over a home, and I said that I should have said my first podcast interview that actually went out for GMC was of my interview and I remember I was so uncomfortable listening to myself talk about myself because, you know, I'm like whol. I to talk about myself. I remember I actually had to send it to my husband first, and then my mom and my friends, and I'm like you guys, listen to it. Tell me if it's worth me listening to this. I really don't want to at a lot to deal with. Worth I remember my mom was like, Oh, like, I'm so proud of you, like y'all'll be sleep on my mom and with res He's like my husband. He's like jazz. This was awesome and I remember listening to it the first time I listened to it and until I had them tell me get out of your head, it was like nails on a chalkboard and I just kept thinking, man, when did I say that or why did I laugh? You know why didn't? Why couldn't I be more professional and composed? But then that's not who I am. Also, like, I'm very kind of a light person. I I'm very lighthearted and some of the the comments that I made, I have a tendency to do that. So when I'm even posting on Linkedin. It's the same thing, and I love that you mentioned codified culture when people are trying to bring people on, because that's also what has happened on Linkedin. When you think about it, everybody on the seed fits a similar culture, especially like FASTEC. It all kind of looks and sounds the same. Everyone has kind of different opinions, but it just looks very similar. So if you're a woman, it's already a little bit harder for you to share now. Even you are a but jubby woman like me, then it's like, oh, like, I don't want you know other people who follow me, your people then specifically know me in my community today. Who does she think she is? But it's like you can talk to other women like me or women like you, or even some of those men who, even they share it. I dealt with this and I still deal with it, so I love that you have shared that you still deal with it and I'm happy that your answer to me wasn't I feel great. Life is awesome, because it wasn't until I had taken on a leadership role I moved from an individual contributor to now I'm actually managing my own priorities. Also the company and people and their feelings, and that's where the imposter stud and started to also it almost manifested physically in my body, where I started having mild forms of anxiety, and I immediately I fortunately, I understood it because I have I've seen anxiety in my family and friends and I recognized the signs and all I was telling myself was get out of your head, stop it, stop whatever you're doing, and I remember I went. It was January. I was feeling Januaryous. Here I was feeling the most paranoid and just absolutely like my the result of my imposter syndrome was great, because I was overworking myself and burning myself out. So the results were awesome, but what it was creating inside of me, this habit just driven by fear, was destroying my body and I knew that there will come a time where I'm going to absolutely burn out. And remember it. Back in January, I was actively reading other women's experiences. I was reading the experiences of other new leaders and picked up a book on confidence and I'm like, I never about it, have to worry about this, but you know, you read other people's experience and it's like you could be like a prime minister of a country and you're still dealing with that. Look at what happened with Zolenski and his bravery, right. He was being made fun of us being this TV personality,...

...and look what's resulted, like his ratings are ninety percent now, and it's like, at the end of the day, we're all trying to figure it out if we can help each other, if we can amplify. So I'm very happy that your vocal. So if you might be feeling like what do I have to share, Rachel, continue to share it, because not only that person that has messaged you privately, I have seen your messages. We actually share them amongst our slack team and Mark M to my marketing team and we use that to be like this is awesome advice. Yes, I'm going to follow it. Yes, whenever I see someone who is taking time off, I will be vocal about it. Whenever I see someone make a sexes comment, like back in the day when I was working at Blockchain, I'm not going to sit there and stay quiet or a laugh because I feel uncomfortable. I'm actually not going to laugh because sometimes a new laugh someone makes the comments. Like you're you're saying, continue to do this and those con those comments, when I hear them now, I actually don't laugh because I'm like, I'm not going to encourage that because I'm also in position where people might be thinking that of me. But you are making an impact. Every every message, every experience that you share, you're making impact. More than that. That individual a message you at least on our team to Soep you. I apparentially you saying that so much. And you know, the issues are still systemic right. We're still trying to unpack them. But one of my favorite things that I've been speaking too lately is just the tiny little tactics that allies can do every day, and in my space that tends to be male allies, but this applies to any number of groups, that a minority group right, who really need someone to advocate for them. And so I know we're coming up at time. Can we do like a rapid fire of some of those tactics? I just want people to have a takeaway of something we can start to even say, let's do it. Yeah, I would love for you to share so rapid bar begins now. Yes, so I love the parent out loud example that we talked about earlier, when you leave early, when you take time off, make sure you vocalize it. It gives permission to mothers and others in the room to do the same. The other thing that was so important that you just mentioned is making sure that first you tell people you believe their story. So, no matter where they're coming from, if they're coming to you and they hear a sexis comment, if they're telling you, particularly if they're telling you about some sort of harassment they've experienced at work, before jumping in and getting defensive, say I believe you tell me more. Another thing that I love, this was something actually that the women in the Obama Administration did, is a strategy called amplification, and this is something where men women in the room, whoever they will, repeat the idea brought up by a woman and give her credit. There is a history of men taking credit for women's ideas, whether or not they need to write. This is the man interrupted, the bro Appropriation, the he peating. We need to eliminate this and we can do this by amplifying women's voices. So men, women, whoever, repeat the key idea that she brought up and give her credit. Say, Oh, I love how jazz mentioned this idea. That's really cool and it can be as simple as that. Right. One other thing that's huge that men and women can start doing, but particularly men should start doing, is becoming formal spawn answers for women in their offices. And it can feel really intimidating because men don't want to come off as creepy. In fact, the statistic that I've seen is that sixty percent of men around comfortable having mentoring relationships oneonone with women in the post me two world, and I have known so many men of integrity who want to make a difference and who want to be better allies and don't know how. So those those easy things that I just mentioned, amplification, periodic out, lowed staying. I believe you. That's a start. But what's really going to make an impact is becoming a foremost sponsor. So, whether you work with your Char Department to set up a formal mentoring opportunity in your workplace, or whether you see someone who is in your team or in your realm of influence that you can help and advocate for, you can raise your hand and say, Hey, jazz did something really cool, I want to shout about it. Then be that person, and so this is such a huge benefit because mathematically and financially, the women who have mentors are more likely to have higher salaries and receive promotions. So it is so critical that women have that benefit. But it also benefits men in the office too, because they have access to that interpersonal relationship with a woman and they gain access to a perspective that they might have been blind to before. So I could talk through a lot more alley alley ship tactics. If you want to see them, feel free to follow me on Linkedin or go to my website. But please just start doing those little things today that are going to make an impact for the marginalized groups in your company. I'm so happy that you stopped me to share those because those are are so, so important, great takeaways. Last thing, but one of the things that you touched on to, was this fear that men have wanting to advocate but in a post met to world. Hundred percent I hear, I see it from some of the the guys that I know that they want to help, but also with this whole world right they're like, oh, I don't want to offend anyone. So the guys, if there's any men listening to this episode, we will share the takeaways and, Rachel, anything you do, share, any resources you APP do, send them to us so we can share it out. But I wouldn't doubt ask someone and if you don't know who to has, reach out to Rachel...

...cotton. Allow her on Linkedin. We will have her episode linked I think what you're doing is an absolutely a brave thing. It is extremely empowering for both men and women and I am so excited about this episode and I'm so happy that you came and you joined us. We will be sharing your tactics and actually putting them together for for the rest of our listeners. But thank you so much. This is by far my favorite episode and I think you will be my favorite episode because it directly impects me and the women and the men that I know too. So absolutely appreciate you coming on the show today. Yeah, thank you, jazz. I appreciate this was so much fun. Thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you'd give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to give a little more inspiration for their next campaign. If you want to learn more about the company behind the show, had to open sensecom. That's open. Seen Secom. Will catch you on the next episode. Five.

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