Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 8 · 1 year ago

Hubspot’s Leading Growth Marketer For Startups Nails Virtual Events

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Hubspot has done big things virtually long before it was the norm. Carl Pieri dipped his toes in Hubspot’s growth engine in 2016 and came back to eventually manage marketing for the Hubspot for Startups program. In this episode, Carl breaks down the team’s Global Virtual Growth Accelerator series. If you’re looking for insights into growth via partnerships and referrals, this one’s a treat.

Welcome to growth marketing camp, where we sit down with our favorite marketers to D mystify growth and give you the insights to help turn your next campaign into a major success. Let's get into it. Hello everyone, and welcome to growth marketing camp. And it was bobby drange and one of the CO founders here at open sense. I am really pleased to be joined today by Carl Pierry from hub spot. Carl, rather than me going through the motions introducing you, why don't you take a minute and maybe introduce yourself to the audience and maybe you can tell us a little bit about your rule at up spot today and perhaps a little bit about what you've done at up spot during your employment there. Yeah, so I've been at hub spot almost five years now and I've been lucky to be on a lot of different teams and different orgs. I came in through kind of a services support route and before making my way over to marketing, and currently I'm on our hub spot for startups marketing team, which is like a mini marketing team within broader hub spot, and we're marketing our startups program which is essentially a discount for startups in their first couple of years. So as they start growing, they don't have to pay the full hub spot bill until they start seeing more revenue. Is essentially the methodology there. makes a ton of sense. If I'm not mistaken, I believe my company was actually part of that program for a period of time and we graduating to put pain full ticket price. So yeah, you're alumni now. Yeah, we're alumni now. Is it that the marketing org for hup spot for startups at within the the broader marketing org or yeah, tell out about sort of ub how up spots sort of us that team, perhaps from objective standpoint, and maybe how that drives your org structure to some extent. Yeah, so the hub spot marketing team is bird. It's hundreds of people, with like dozens of people specializing in different areas of the flywheel or different experiences. The hubster for startups marketing team is like it's just four of US started, just a mini team like that sits on the hub spot marketing team and we focus primarily on marketing our program it's the great thing is that we have all of these learnings from broader hub spot that we can bring to our team and that we can use to amplify what we're doing. The tough thing, obviously, as we're trying to do the same thing that a few hundred other people are trying to do with just a few people. So we have to get a bit more scrappy, which also helps us empathize with the startups themselves. I wanted to dig into Hupsot for startups as we continue the conversation, but I did also want to ask you just because I'm admittedly, a massive fan of up spot and have been for years. I've massive had admiration for from engineering to the way that you'll market yourselves present yourselves in the market place. So it's a real treat for me to be able to have this conversation with you today. And one of the things I wanted to ask you about was, if I'm not sticking prior to hub spot for startups, you were involved in a leadership rotational program or I don't know if it was leadership progner se, but as a rotational program yeah, I'm really curious about that, Carl, because I've heard of those and I've seen them at certain companies, but I don't know that I see it a lot in technology stass companies can you tell me a little bit about that experience, just how it was for you and and if it's something that you might recommend? Maybe you just tell me a little about that experience. Yeah, absolutely, it was a...

...really great experience for me. So the way it works is you do eight months working support, so you're doing I like wed or phone support, and see you really learn about the product and you really learn about the customers and then you rotate over to a team on the marketing side. So what happens is a bunch of managers pitch different roles that they would like help on for eight months, since you take one of those, and then eight months later you switch to another one and when that ends, most people stay and whatever they finished on, but you also could go to a new opportunity. It's awesome because I think it's number one. I'll. Obviously great for me because I got to have all these different experiences before knowing where I wanted to settle. I think it's really helpful for the company because that knowledge of the product and that knowledge of the customers can be really hard to come by sometimes on marketing, because marketing, if we think about it as the least interaction with customers if we're going to compare like sales support and marketing, but we're speaking to prospects all days, all day long. I found it really helpful to just be that voice of the customer in the room when you're working on different strategies. Definitely recommend a rotational program for companies. It's been a big success and that, like the people that come out of the program, I think, are high performers, have spot in most stick around for quite some time. It's also highly sought by folks that are coming out of schools and like it was pretty competitive. I want to ask you about that, but I just can't move on without calling up the the fact that you spent eight months on frontline support. Yeah, look, I've been working on building open sense with my team for the last eight plus years and I still take it frontline support calls and yeah, I'm not ashamed of that, because it's all well and good what your value prop is, but if in that moment you're not able to deliver that service, value proper or whatever, but if you can execute on that, the trust that's built there and the sentiment that's built there, but also, just for you, like you said, the knowledge it doesn't get any better than that. Right. You're ye, can't speak to customers needs if you don't really know them, and one of the best ways is just to get that raw and unfiltered. Hey, we need your help solving X, Y Z thing with yeah, it's so valuable and a huge percentage of our product team has actually come through support. Makes Sense, which it's just so great that they have that knowledge in that experience, and it also it helps you know where to go to find the right information when absolutely sourcing ideas, are sourcing problems. It's just you have such a leg up there. have been come through that background, in my opinion. And then how did help spot position that to you as you're coming out of school? I mean, this is an opportunity to every new hire has, or I guess. Yeah, it was. Are some selectivity to it. It's changed since then, but at the time it was basically once, like in the fall of your senior year, you can apply to this program and then they accept three to four people and like a cohort, and they did that yearly. It's actually changed. Now we're rolling out a new program that isn't actually rotational, but it's a similar it's designed for folks coming out of school or folks that are like making that career switch. So it's still going to be a pretty cool program but I definitely recommend it. Man, I graduated out of a school in Boston in two thousand and eight and I wish there was that type of opportunity available for me, but I got I got lucky. Cool. Yeah, that's because I got it. It was around for I think five or six years, so I got lucky that I got in.

Well, while they're cool and very cool, thanks for giving me a little bit incide into that. I R CEO on myth is a former Bloomberg. He ran information security there, OH, quote number of years, and I believe that Bloomberg you can't sell until you've actually done support, meaning like their actual program is they put you on support before you can actually start selling to the customer. Yeah, I think the values. So it's definitely recommend that I help so you can shadow support calls. which when and exactly does that? I remember them as someone that does like cause you see them on the support floor and that means a lot to me that they're taking that time. They don't actually do this work because Ub Sport supports pretty complicated, so it wouldn't be good for the customer to have them do that, but it's definitely good at least a shadow and learn. Absolutely. Yeah, anyway, that I could probably spend a whole nother podcast talk about because it because it is so customer centric and so customer focused. And speaking of customers again, it feels special to be able to talk to you this week in particular. I think it was just a couple days ago at that their mansion, Brian took out a full page ad in your time thank in the market for having surpassed a hundred thousand customers. I know you'll run in the office right now, but how do you feel about that? I mean, yeah, out of that work. Yeah, it was really cool because our mission is to help millions of organizations grow better. So hundred thousand customers and we're like one DECM will point, away from a million now. So it's pretty exciting to just hit that mark. And obviously we've been crunching, like I've been there for a while. Everyone a help spot really worked really hard. So I think that was just a big success for us and we're a very I mean a lot of companies are, but I think I spint particular very customer like center and customer focused then obsessed. So that was just such a big moment. I know if we were in the office it probably would have been even like more celebration and excitement, but he still felt it. Congratulations particularly you've been there for a number of years. You're part of the story there and I can imagine we feel it on our much smaller scale milestones, but that's such an incredible number and to see the product having evolved from a marketing automation platform to now a customer platform, full cycle customer platform. Again it's testament, I think, to understanding customers needs and then having them to know how and the prowess to actually get to build something like that. And so this is a decent pivot into talking a little bit elevate, because it's interesting how you can approach the market right as a start up, as a company, you have a number of different options available to you and I see it a lot in some of the customers that we work with. There's kind of a default text st act that you kind of yeah, see right, but as you've developed different product lines and things and sorted it's definitely opened up. It seems hup about two different aspects of the market. But the Hubs Butt Struck for startups program is pretty, I think, smart. Maybe you can tell me a little bit about sort of like the genesis of the program what the thinking was behind it? Yeah, and maybe you're perhaps some of the early throt of challenges asses. Yeah, as with like many great things, started as a tiny idea and tiny prototype was just one sales rap realized he was constantly having calls with startups that just couldn't afford hubs spot. But he like really believed in their mission and was like I'm sure you're going to be able to afford it in two years, but at that point you're going to be on a competitor and you'll probably not necessarily like the competitor wrong, but it's going...

...to be real hard to switch to hub spot, even if you want to. So started as a small idea where he could kind of just he and other ups to kind of pick the startups that they wanted to. It's we don't say it's investing, but it's sort of like take a gamble on with the program and then over time it became more established so we decided we made like strict rules around funding and then you have to have a specific startup partner in order to be eligible for the program. So that's how we know, like you, you are startup basically, and it's just grown since then. So started in North America and then now we have people in like almost every continent. Obviously not an article, I think every other one. But it's grown like quite a bit because when I started years ago, I had like some exposures team and I think it was just too full time people and then basically like begging for help from four or five other people, and now it's grown to a program that has at least forty people full time working on it. So it's been pretty exciting to see that growth over time. That's incredible that it's grown to that substantial of a team and that's going to be a larger team than many of the startups that I'm sure you're even supporting, which is incredibly it shows a level of investment that's being made there. But in terms of long term strategy, like it doesn't take a rocket side just to understand that. It's like a long tail sort of play where it's if you can work with them early, get them adopted, then they'll be a hub spot customer. I can say that with confidence because that's basically the Tri rectory that we took. We still undized on hub spot from marking standpoint, but then also crum and I think one of the things that's been amazing is we talked about being customer center, because we've seen iterations on spot for sales over the years and it's gotten like way better. But I am curious about this, and we tackle this issue sometimes as well, is you're talking about giving up spot away. I don't know if it's for pennies on the dollar, for free or whatever the case might be, but certainly is an organizational cost support that. And as you're getting sort of execute level by in for this, how are you brogering that sort of topic? What is internal dialog around that? The big thing is at first it was a lot of just asking for favors and it was small, so it wasn't that much work on anyone's plate. Since then, they're real key to success is how we make the program as touchless as possible. So if you pay full price for a hub spot product, you're going to also pay a big on boarding fee probably and you're going to get some pretty like hand holding on boarding. But for example, of self startups, it's a more touchless experience, which is actually still really great. I helped the team develop it, so cool, a fan of it. And then also purchase experience. If you talk to a rep for hubs, for startups, you usually won't talk to a REP usually purchase touchlessly, but if you do, it'll be like a shorter conversation because it's a much smaller purchase. So that's in the usually less questions to be asked at that point, because when a company is like moving over, it's a lot more questions than if you're really building at the foundation. So that's just been the really the key is, how do we make this experience as touchless as possible without sacrificing and making it worse? So often we actually see that these touchless experiments that we run with our group actually that perform better than the more handholding ones. So it's cool because it's a bit of a test like test tube there that, like sometimes experiments we run for our team actually expand...

...out to other teams because, like, we see this success but that touched less like trying to of course, have humans when they need them, but not excessively, has been the key there. I'm struck by a couple things. Number one is that the benefit is not only to the startup community at large, which is a huge benefit. Yeah, and I think builds a lot of good will, but you're telling me that as a result of some of the onboarding experiences that you've built or selling experiences, that you're actually potentially impacting the broader business with learnings, findings and potentially, yeah, technology development. Yeah. Yeah, so it's less me. Then we have this amazing onboarding team that, yeah, developing the content, but yeah, so when they run something that's like really successful, it's like maybe we shouldn't just be the small segment of our customers, maybe we should be expanding at all of them. And it's nice because it's a less risky population to test with, because there's less money essentially. Yeah, so it's good for that purpose. Yeah, well, that's really fascinating. The other thing that I was struck by is a hub spot publicly traded for a number of years now. I don't exactly when you're like pyout, but it sounds to me that there was an idea and a group of motivated individuals who were able to basically operate almost like a like a startup within this company to make something happen, and that kind of goes against the grain in terms of what most people would think about working at like a large, publicly traded software company. Is that just tough about culture? Like, how does that happen at a company? Yeah, that's a lot of hostball. Culture is if someone has a really great idea and they can get the buy in on it, obviously they probably won't get put on a full time at first, but if they can make it their internal side hustle, they can expand over time. I'd say startups is probably made like the biggest success example of that, just because how well it's grown and how well now it's been copied by other companies since we've done it. But it's definitely in a hub spots culture to accept that and try to encourage it, and I think it's obviously easier at points when you're younger because it's just less process and structure and place to start the program today would be really difficult because you'd be disrupting a lot of stuff. But I still think if we had the idea today hub spop would be willing to gamble. It would just probably be a different journey as a consumer, I mean whatever that is and however that manifests itself publicly. We feel it as considers like there's something to that and it's also just interesting because I'm I guess maybe they'll buy as towards west coast tech, but that has very like west coast vibes to it in it for an East Coast Company, which I've ember appreciate. I think we're pretty proud of that and being, I think our see calls it, like a pillar company in Boston, that we're like one of the tech successes, and I think there's some advantages to being an east coast company. For example, like talent stays around a lot longer in the east coastin does in the West Coast, and that I think, helps you move faster in a lot of ways when you're not be teaching folks things. Totally. It's a great point. Yeah, so there's some big advantages, but it definitely I'm sure it was a lot harder at the beginning because getting funding as a Boston based company, especially back then, it was a lot harder of a cell.

I give that credit to our CEO for telling that story properly. Soltly, being credential from MT doesn't hurt. Yeah, awesome. I want to start talking a little bit about campaigns. Obviously we talked about growth on this podcast. When I think about the word growth as a person involved in business, that seems like you might as well just call the topic business because Alto yeah, terms of the businesses is generally to grow, and I think everyone has a little bit of a different definition and our goal is to de mystified a little bit. Well, let's talk about in plain English, and I think one of the things I've learned and just having a few of these conversations in the last several weeks, is when it comes to like campaigns, that's another word that I think people find a little bit differently and depending on your company, depending on your approach and just your overall start of marketing strategy. Just hup spot for startups have a specific view on campaigns, or is it a broader up spot view on campaigns? I left to just under yeah, when you think of a campaign, what does it actually mean to you? Yeah, for us, I say campaign typically means something that's going to start and finished at some point, like it's going to be kind of over so might be like an event or content series, things like that. That's usually how we think of a campaign. The other way where people might call this campaign, but we would just call it experiments. Internally, is like kind of those ongoing improvements and like optimizations and like efforts that don't have a set begin and end state. But I think other people might call those campaigns. We just are scientific and how we appatch them. Okay, on average hume spot for startups, how many campaigns are you launching each quarter? Generally speaking, they kind of range. will do at least like four, I'd say, like small tim mid sized ones, and then each year we try to run at least a few big campaigns. Two Thousand and twenty obviously was tough because we had the actually like an ongoing campaign series for the year that was in person. That was canceled, but we've had ones that obviously are virtual. So it depends on the bandwidth, depends on how big the campaign is. If it's something that is of twenty hours versus four hundred hours, definitely it is a time back to a team objective corporate objective, or is it more just hey, this seems like a really good idea, let's build a campaign around it. So how do you sort of ore? Yeah, typically we look at the impact that it would drive on our eligible applications, so that's the folks that apply to our program who are eligible, like the startups. So basically, whenever we're looking at a campaign, we're coming back to what is the predicted impact of this? Who's going to want to go to it? What's the existing audience for this? What expected conversion might we expect? There's definitely times when that doesn't always work out. Sometimes you just have to do things because you have to do them and then they've been won't necessarily drive that impact, but we try as much as we can. With every hour of the day that we're spending is this driving applications, and so that's like our North Star that we've just rallied behind for a couple years now. And as you architect them, do you have a template that you work off of? Like you were saying, what does potential impact act? One of the potential conversion rates, where there are a series of questions that you seek to answer befort investing or to depend on the motion that you're running. It can depend, but if it's some more standard campaign, we might try to say how much traffic will the the page for this campaign get? What percentage...

...of that traffic do we expect to convert into attendees or resistance, and then from there what percentage we expect to convert into applications to the program so just building out that funnel or waterfall. You have see how that works out. That makes sense as the company that basically branded in bound to sometime have that of approach. Again, I'm Giddy to have this conversation give look. I think it is like the peep behind the curtain and so I really appreciate you you sharing some of that. I'd love to maybe just dig into one of these campaigns and again, I think I saw your twenty nineteen numbers. Imagine they've gone up since then because, yeah, forty seven hundred and eight thousand. So tell me a little bit about a particular campaign that I guess is memorable to you or stands out to your perhaps with one of your favorites, and I'd love to maybe just start off with like just the high levels for a campaign objective or what the hypothesis was if you're looking, yeah, scientific standpoint. So the campaign that stands out as this one called elevate. We called a global virtual growth accelerator. So it's basically sessions on how to apply hub spots in down methodology, so attracting, engaging and delighting customers, and then tacked onto that is just a session presenting your start up for funding. So what we can realized is they were like a gap in the content that a lot of startups are learning incubators or accelerators or if they're not doing those, if their bootstrap. There's this gap of like how to really achieve growth when you're in those early days of a start up, like what should you really be thinking about? Because, like, when you look at the principles of Amazon and how Netflix is growing today, most of that doesn't apply to it, a newer start up. Correct. So we realize there was that gap in the market and we also realize that making it virtual, so this was before coronavirus, but we realize that had some appeal, just because a lot of incubators and ciders are very heavy on being in person, and so we wanted to open it up to folks that aren't necessarily living and like a typical startup environment. The hypothesis is basically we think that there's like this gap that's not being served by anyone with education, including ourselves. Or maybe it's being served but it isn't being properly messaged as such. So we wanted to fill that gap with this virtual accelerator. This is really interesting, becauses, if I'm hearing you correctly, it sounds like you will, were leaning virtual before virtual became sort of been. Yeah, but in doing so that was the gap that you were looking to address, that perhaps you could broad in the exposure of the program or brought in the base of potential user. What was the sort of the kernel got the center of it all that drove you to that? I'm not from just being a recognizable gap. I think the crel really was that the virtual aspect was a big thing back in two thousand and nineteen. It was. This content really doesn't seem to be being served virtually and there is in person content where you can get it, but you're also not necessary learning from experts. You might be learning from not experts but like maybe like a program manager at an incubator accelerator versus like from the people who are doing this day and in, day out. So that was the thing. They're cool. I don't know what the appetite was for virtual events, pre coronavirus. It's all been a blur to me. But how did...

...you think about who to target with this and through what channels were you looking to reach them? It was a bit of begging in terms of looking at the internal channels that help spot, that have spot has available. So obviously we have strong like social presences and we've got some great news letters. We have executive content that performs quite well. So it is it basically about finding all the opportunities across all of those different channels, or we thought we could reach our audience and working with those teams to produce or help produce content. And then another big one was, since it we are a partner model for software start ups, it was working with our partners directly. So how can we work with them to tell them about this program and they were really excited about it. That was one of our highest. We kind of look at the buckets of where everyone came from and that was one of the highest and the last one that was pretty big was actually referrals, and so when you were accepted to the program you were allowed to send a referral essentially to like other startup school and that worked really well for us, because the startup the ecossn't especially back then, when focus often like worked next to each other, was really niche and tight and like they're happy to share content with each other because, like, usually it's not necessilio winners takes all, because the usually, like the start next to you, is not doing anything similar to you. So that was also a really powerful channel. Super Smart to really recognize the fact that if I'm currently bootstrap start up and I'm likely renting a desk next to it maybe ten hours. Yeah, that's like a real sort of understanding of your target audience. Realistically. Again, we've sat in those deaths. So I understand exactly what you're describing. Yeah, but the other thing that's really interesting that you talked about, and I guess this is really fascinating to me, the partner network that you have is pretty incredible. If I think there was a bonus topic, if I'm not mistaken, maybe it was one of the primary topics on last year's sessions about their Oh yeah, yeah, system, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, in two thousand and twenty we had a bonus section around leveraging the partner ecosystems for your growth, because there are certain products that just it really makes sense to leverage these market places that already exist. And, for example, like at this point hub spot is so big that there's businesses that are entirely built off of the hub spot. Absolutely like integration, ability and then so it was really about like how to unlock that for your company if it makes sense for your company. Yeah, I know, it's really fascinating. It just the opportunities is particulous potentially there. We certainly think about that a little bit as well. So it's just interesting to hear that is being one of the more viable channels for this particular program let me ask you. So, is it too safe to say that in nineteen it was in person and then twenty was virtual? It is that we were both virtual, but two thousand and nineteen ended in like an in person pitch event at inbound. Okay, cool. So, like there was that component that was also planned for two thousand and twenty, but it actually worked out a little bit better because the problem with that is it's mostly North America folks who can afford to take the time and money to go to inbound. So about making it like fully virtual? Last year we were able to open the demo, we call them demo days, to four different time zones around the globe, amazing, which was great. So that leaves me to ask you. It sounds like that's a good, nice win for last year versus nineteen perhaps, but what are some things that have worked out,...

...perhaps that surprised you and worked out for the better? That surprised you, and perhaps some things that maybe didn't pan out that you're also, yeah, surprised by? I think one thing is we always talked about don't listen to what I say, but watch what I do, and I think we didn't follow that. Amazingly, from two thousand nineteen to two thousand and twenty, and that we expanded the program a lot and added, I think it was twice as many sessions as there had been the year before because they were so requested and people really wanted this. Topics are these topics. But what that meant is that the program became like a little bit like scary or like huge to look at from the startups perspective and they felt like if they missed out on any of the content, suddenly they were behind and they didn't necessarily want to keep participating. So even though we did have way more folks participating, like the percentage that were like active week over a week was not so great. So we went from that. We need to do a better job. Even if they request all these things, it doesn't necessarily mean that we should do all of them, because it just becomes overwhelming in a bit of a mess. And so that's something this here where actually really we're going back to the core elements and really focusing on what we do best. That's another really interesting and unique sort of finding. Like I could just imagine I don't think imparted, but like you start looking at the list of all these things that I need to do better. When I think in early stay age, like the focus really is just get your traction and and but once you attraction, these things will fall into place, and here's a framework to think about that. Yeah, really interesting. It's a really interesting observation. I think year to year. So it's the future of the program like it's the team's grown obviously from an idea and inception to again. I think the numbers eight thousand that that I saw a participants of the last couple of years. We're does this good? What is the story going forward with yeah, so in two thousand and twenty one, we're splitting it so that we can get a more North America focused one and then a more internationally focused elevate. So it's going to happen like once in the summer and then once in the fall or in the winter. So that's something that we're excited about. The other thing I mentioned is we're going to be bringing it back to those core elements that we originally had focused on. That's pretty great. And then we're also just going to be we're always looking for partners on the event. First Year we had in venture of fronts. Then last year we had great off. So this year we're looking for an international partner based in a mia so we can kind of understand that audience a bit better. So that's pretty exciting. That is very cool. We did participate in elevate, but we were involved in Husle for start off program. It was tremendous benefit to us. It gave us an ability to be exposed to the product, which I've grown to love and certainly standardized on, and so I think like that long tail component is real. I don't know that's something you necessarily want to get into the specifics around, but I am curious. Do you all have like visibility to time, just like generally speaking, I imagine you're measuring the impact of this on the business? Yeah, it's pretty interesting to seek because we're investing or we're giving the software two startups. So you do see like lower retention to an extent, because obviously most startups after time aren't still around. But what we see is that is way off set by the startups that do stick around, because not only does their discs go down but like almost all of them are purchasing...

...more products because they're seeing success on hub spot. So even though we call it like logo retention, my kind of go down, your dollar retention is looking great and actually it's like offsetting other areas of hosepot that like not are bad, but just like maybe one month there was a tough month, but like startup say great, so we're good. So it's really exciting to see that. And that took time because like it was two years before our first startup ever finished the program and it was only started five years ago. So like now that we have more data and we can show that the value of it, it's an easier cell and it gets us more investment, which is great. Absolutely. And you started the conversation to they talking about the million customer mark because, yeah, high level goal. This seems like a pretty valuable channel. Yeah, new logos, new customers, tell you achieve that goal exactly, and we're excited to see like what startups come out of it, because it's still new. But some of the startups that we've already seen, some grow to be big, some of them are UNICORNS, but we're site for the days when like the next door or the next uber is coming through up start for startups will be absolutely cool, very cool, really fascinating. I think the elevate program as a sort of a growth strategy is just a fascinating example. I think it's unique in and seems to make a ton of sense, just giving overall business objectives and I don't know it just the good will component of it, I think, is also pretty pretty powerful as well from a brand standpoint. Help spots out there doing that and that's really I think that's off little that we're allowed to invest that time. Yeah, and because obviously, like most of the companies, a lot of them might not end up using up spot or I don't know where they went, but I still hope that they found a lot of value, like participating in elevate, for example. Yeah, again, I've living on the bay area software companies left and right. I don't know of a ton and an. You talking about there being copycats up there, but I haven't seen it to extent that we saw it experienced it with. Yeah, yeah, I think we're pretty early. I think the other big one is probably a Wus has. It has a great I start that program and you're selling to see them pop up and you'll see it. It reminds me of our early days when it was just like a google form. was basically like yeah, yeah, it's fun to see like other companies are not stage right now. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I want to ask you just a couple questions for that today, just general experience questions. As a employed up spot of a marketer, are there things that you see, whether it's competitors or other companies marketers doing, that you think that they maybe should stop doing? Right away or that you can't stand when you see it, or things that you see in you absolutely love. I know I'm ask you for basically, yeah, but what are some things perhaps that you see out there that you either love or hate, or that you would like to implement or would never sort of yeah, ten foot pull. I think the ones that frustrated me or when I see marketing efforts, are really feels like they did not bother to get to know like the end person, that they're like designing the experience, for designing the ad for often you'll see that one, like the company, for example. So we just celebrate our hundred thousand mark, but like it. Even in the ad that we put in the New York Times, it was really all about our customers. But often you'll see like a lot of companies...

...are just like talking about themselves in the ads and a lot less on like how they can help folks. So I think that's a big one, and also just focusing more on like the helpful. It's the INBAT methodology, but like being helpful, like how your content can be helpful, versus just like asking for my attention or asking to sign up for your product without telling me much about it. I think that those are like the big ones. It's less marketing and it's kind of more the growth marketing and maybe also product. But sometimes you feel in an experience in a product when they're like way over trying to monetize a product, like they're really aggressive with their emails, they have millions of pay walls, yeahm or they've got these popups everywhere. That's to me isn't a great experience. And I also know from hub spot that when you do that, like your turn on investment goes down at some point, like it's not really worth all of those things. That's another one I'd say folks definitely be cautious out of and like take the time to like secret shop your product and see what the experience is like on the other side, because you learn a lot when you do that. You know, the customer centric approach. It really is so important. Like yeah, how are you building? How are you creating value, communicating value, delivering value to the customer every time they touch your company? Like it's not even secrets off. That's just how you should expect to build a business where people have options. People don't want to change providers, they want to have their pain solved or value created and they want to have a good experience. Yeah, while every while that's happening. Yeah, it's funny. You mentioned the ads that speak more to the company versus the customer. I saw something just on Linkedin today where I think it was an executive was touting an incredible month or incredible quarter or something like that, and he says it's a testament to our leadership, and I'm just thinking if I was an employee at that company, I would say surprised you didn't say it's a testament to the hard work that my team put in, or in fact, that incredible customers or something. So there is self awareness it. This is an interesting concept. Right self awareness as people, but then also almost like corporate self awareness, like understanding how you're being perceived by the important stakeholders, whether it's your customers, your employees or investors. What are the case might be? I think, like I've definitely observe companies that do a better job of that than others, although I could see we, like myself, having not done a great job with that personally. That certain it can be hard and it's nice to celebrate your wins, but like they're also your customers wins and your customers like being celebrated. So totally. Who Do you read these days or who do you follow in terms of like your own personal and career development? I feel bus a lot on growth. I also find actually product management, like I take a lot of the lessons of product management because that whole modern product management is based around the customer, in solving customer problems and in my opinion, like really great growth marketing is doing the same thing. So I do a lot of learning from them. One is Brian Baal, for who he has like a course called reforge. He actually was a farmer hub spotter, but now he runs this company on reforge which gives these like amazing lessons and also like free webinars and stuff, again growth, so definitely recommend that. Andrew Chen is another one. I think he's to be at Uber and now he's a partner at Andres and Horowitz. He's someone I follow on twitter. And then last one is...

Brian Kimmel. So she actually just moved to starting adventure fund but she, like typically, has been in like the marketing growth side of the world. So recommend following her on twitter because her insights are great. Those are fantastic. I can't help that. I want to ask you one last question because you mentioned something about understanding the customer and how that sort of ties back to product development, but you're saying using the similar sort of approach for growth marketing. Can you explain to me what you mean by yeah? So I think it's so product management a big thing is like about finding the problem and then from there you work towards the solution. I think at marketing we often jump to the solution without fully understanding the problem or even like making sure it is a problem with our customers. So the key there is let's start with the problem and then develop the solution there, and we might even develop the solution. And product management you're doing that with constant communication with the customers. Marketing you don't necessarily have the time to be that crazy about it, but you can at least be working some with customers. Are emailing or talking occasionally. So I think like those aspects, and then also just getting on regular calls with customers is something that I've said. This is really important to me just because in marketing is not usually many as to be on a call with the customer and it's easy to realize a three years I've gone by without actually talking to any so I regularly, at least once a week, try to like schedule something. I'm glad I ask that question. That's really helpful, really helpful explanation and certainly something for me to chew on after the fact. Call. You've been so generous of your time today and I really appreciate you coming on. It was just such a pleasure to just have the chance to learn a little bit more about the machine, the organism that is helped spot and yeah, you think about things and how you operate and then, as a start up that's leverage the platform and been involved in the program we are, as a community, appreciative of the work that you are going so we're very shit that investment that you've made to yourself and the company. It's incredible to hear that there's forty people now valocated this program. Yeah, it's quite a to you. Yeah, thanks so much for joining us today and if you have any last comments, and if not, we can wrap up all right. That's comment is just don't forget about your customers and talk to them as often as you can. I think that's the big one for me, absolutely awesome. Thanks, call thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you would give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to get a little more inspiration for their next campaign. If you want to learn more about the company behind the show, had to open sinsecom. That's open, sken s ECOM. Will catch you on the next episode.

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