Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 35 · 9 months ago

Life at the Crossroads of Sales and Marketing

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Taylor Thomson runs both business development and revenue operations for performance branding agency, WITHIN. His team sits apart from and supports both sales and marketing, and in this episode, he breaks down his top techniques for creating the best outcomes for all parties involved.

Welcome to growth marketing camp, where we sit down with our favorite marketers to de mystify growth and give you the insights to help turn your next campaign into a major success. Let's get into it, all right, welcome to another excellent, exciting, exuberant episode of Growth Marketing Camp. Super happy to be joined by Taylor Thompson, who's the director of Business Development and revenue operations at within. Taylor, thanks for joining us. Many thanks for having me. Glad to be here virtually. Yeah, now you guys describe within as a performance branding company, and I'm really interested because we have a lot of marketers listening to this. Right. What is performance branding versus, you know, what we might consider traditional branding? Yeah, so performance branding is really the sort of unification of performance marketing and brand marketing, right, where performance marketing would be your traditional performance driven KPI that a business might have, let's call it whatever, you know, whatever it might be row as or CPA, or what we really love is LTV. Sure, and then brand marketing is building that emotional connection with your consumer. And traditionally those two sides of the house are sort of bifurcating. They don't communicate with each other. They have different budgets, they have different KPIS. The performance marketing team wants to drive profit and revenue and the brand marketing team really wants to just have that good emotional connection, and we've sort of come along to unify and collapse that funnel between performance in brand marketing so that all of your marketing efforts, all your communication with your customer is both aligned on that emotional connection. Right. Why do they care about your brand as well as everything driving towards some sort of overall business KPI? Again, we like lifetime value because we believe that it is the truest sense of what how your customer basis performing. But it could be, you know, it could be a row as metric. You know, if you're a sort of early stage and just want to better understand kind of how your brand marketing and higher performance marketing or playing together. Sure that seems like an exciting cross roads to sit at and to claim that you've been able to find some mastery of that subject. I imagine attracts a lot of attention. You guys have some amazing customers. I mean I know at least half a dozen household brands, Nikes, going to be one of those top up there that you guys have worked with and largely before you came to the roll, those were coming inbound correct. Those are folks who had maybe heard of you through someone or maybe worked with you through previous groups. Like how are you guys growing? Before you started the business development efforts? Yeah, we were growing organically. You know, the company when I started was about four and a half or five years old and the business growth had been in bound, organic through client referrals, through word of mouth, through, you know, our relationships that have been cultivated by our our CEO and founder, Joe, who came from the brand's side. He used to work at vitamin shop where he ran marketing there and and that sort of has informed a lot of process as we've come from the brand's side. But yeah, it was a it was an organic process and you know, some of the biggest clients we have. It was also just a land and expand of hey, we're going to prove ourselves on this one channel and just continue to do that over and over and over and over again, and that was a great growth, you know, path for the company for five years and and still actually a very strong part of our business is, you know, our clients and our network understanding and you know, really telling other people that, hey, you know, this is a good company and they know what they're doing. Like your angle on that in terms of how people would recognize you as being different, the way that you approach the brand of the performance in to make sense of people will be talking to each other about that, because when you find an agency that does great work, you know you're happy to share, because there are lots of agencies that it are trying their best, perhaps, but not doing the best work, not getting the results as easily as it trackable...

...as you might be doing. Now, before we jump into how business development and ultimately revenue operations fits into the whole picture at within, talk about your background a little bit. You went to Davidson College for and correct me if I'm wrong, this is your linkedin profile reporting here, political science, economics in Spanish, and it feels like there's either a very specific role you were preparing for or you just love three subjects too much to pick one. Was the story there. There was really no role that I was preparing for. I wanted to be a lawyer at one point, I wanted to be an investment banker at one point and then I decided that I wanted weekends and I didn't want to be in the office until four. I am all my friends that went into investment banking were, you know, fairly miserable and I didn't want to be miserable. And so I studied, you know, subjects that I thought were interesting to me and that I thought actually really, you know, played well together. I think that something that I've noticed in this role, that I certainly cultivated in school studying different subjects, was how all of those different things play together and how really political science and economics aren't extricably linked. There's a whole subject called, you know, political economy, but you can't talk about you know, supply side economics without thinking about the political, I guess, factors that play into you know, different economic theories. The two are really really linked and I spent a lot of time studying, as you could imagine, with the Spanish, Latin American political economics, a lot of time studying the kind of the the histories and backgrounds of countries like Argentina and Juli and Brazil, and so ended up ended up from there kind of not really knowing where I wanted to go, and so ended up at a financial services company for about three and a half years. Basically, the idea there was I'm going to go somewhere where I can continue to just learn cocktail party knowledge, like have a cocktail party level of understanding of as many subjects as possible, and then maybe one of them is interesting enough to move into as an actual career. Yeah, and so you, I guess it sounds like, almost tumbled your way into the business development side of the house. Of like that's not a direct bee lines straight for business develop like, oh my gosh, this guy's going to be growing businesses, he's going to be front lines having conversations with respective customers, looking to grow teams, running that sort of conversation. What was that path like for you? How'd you get there? It's tumbling is probably the best description of how I got there. Again, started off at this financial services company. was there for about three and a half years and at the industry there's it's called the expert network industry. Basically we recruited consultants to work with investment funds and hedge funds and these were industry consultants, and so I got a lot of kind of breadth of understanding of a lot of different industries and move from there into Martec as a BDR. There, you know, that kind of path was I wanted to get out of financial services and sort of get some exposure into an industry that I thought was interesting, which was, you know, Martec, and put myself more on a, I guess, your traditional sales trajectory kind of pivot into the bedr roll, which was kind of my first I guess, tell in the water of what you would consider like actual, you know, business development as we really know today, especially in the SASS landscape, and was in that role for about six months until I moved up into a role where I was responsible for our mid market in SNB sales. The company was was tall his store right. It's no longer called his story. It was acquired by a company called am parody, but it was in the CDP space. Hmm, I imagine that that Gosh, I didn't know the right term for it. But like a very broad, mixed background, like a mixed bag of ideas and understanding and learnings and like international thoughts informed a lot of the way that you approach sales. And I know we're going to talk about how you approach business development at within. But how has that benefited you, having that kind of well rounded background, you might say? You know, I think the thing that's probably been the most helpful about that background is just the...

...ability to put together different pieces of, you know, articles I might see or information I might capture and be able to apply it, you know, in other ways. I also think it helped, especially, as you know, in Business Development, that I spent a lot of time researching things and having to have a cursory understanding of, I mean, the things we were working on financial services. Like I could have a ten minute conversation with you about, you know, how fire investigators in California investigate wildfires and make decisions about who, like is that fault. I can't have an eleven minute conversation, but I can go ten minutes, and so I think that, you know, ability to pick up on things really quickly and kind of put myself in the mind of that person that I was talking to has been really helpful from a sales and business development perspective because, especially for the you know, the prospects that we're going after big companies. You know, we've got a pretty big client base in there, you know, fortune five hun our companies, being able to understand their kind of pain points, understand their problems, really see the world from their Lens. I think that ability was really bolstered by this kind of background of just random smatterings of industries and topics and having to kind of put that all together. Yeah, and it feels like you could have gone into likely either marketing or sales, because they're there two sides of the same coin. A lot of that research, a lot of thinking like someone else, putting yourself in their shoes, quick to adapt messaging to, you know, maybe a different persona seems like fit perfectly. And and you're at an interesting point where a lot of marketers are running business development or sales development teams. especially in the software world, there's this kind of split between well, is it on the sale side of the House, on the marketing side of the house? Would we consider them? How do you guys look at that at within, because it feels a little bit like both sometimes. And where's that distinction for you guys? Yeah, it certainly feels like both and I've, you know, in my background I've worked for as a PDR both the head of marketing and the head of sales. Oh good, you see both sides. Okay, I've seen both sides and here within I report into the into our head of revenue. But as we've built out the team it's been less about do we report into the head of sales or the head of marketing and actually a little more independent. I see the business development team here at within as a more independent team than just directly kind of reporting into sales or marketing. I think that's actually benefited us. Part of that, I think, is because we've sort of spun up a lot of these divisions all the same time, and so if you're spinning up marketing and bead at the same time, you know it's not a lot of historical hierarchy there to work with. Yeah, there's there's no there no prior you know, kind of misconceptions about what it needs to look like. Sure, and so here it within, you know, we kind of have the business development team broken out separately. Actually think it's been really good for us because you're less driven by the metrics or the KPI's that those two teams are reliant on, or what they were, you know, gold on for success and, as you know, everybody will know, like the marketing team is basically, you know, for all intents and purposes, they care about getting a lead in the door and and they white, you know, they kind of wash their hands and they're like great, and you've got a business development team that's only purpose is to support that initiative or that effort. Well, you're misaligned with the entire rest of the sales or revenue org and vice versa, if the DD team is only incentivized on bringing the best opportunities or the things that will get basically the close. Because obviously all sales people, as we all know, are are really interested in, you know, getting their win rights high and and they'll, you know, stand bag and opportunity as soon as they can if it's not going to close. And I've been guilty of that before. But they you know, if if that's the goal of business development team, because we know, we find that that's also a misaligned so having them kind of exist on, having it exists on its own has been, I...

...think, helpful for us in optimizing the performance of all the teams. And how have you guys been staying close to sales and marketing? Because, from a reporting standpoint, make sense because our independent report to revenue, but it's always you, I imagine you've always got to be talking to both teams. Like how what's the quality of meetings that we're setting? What's the quality leads that we're getting? How can we better work the leads that we're getting to their higher quality when we're setting them? Like what's the conversation? Like you guys have regular reporting, or rather regular project meetings where you talked about the sorts of campaigns you're working on? Or how do you guys run that? Today? We're really close that team. The company has grown substantially since I've started. The revenue team has grown, you know, even more magnitudes, right, but we're still a smaller team. We're still really you know, we have consistent conversation, you know, like we're all on slack. We all talk to each other, you know, every day, like it's still kind of a startup environment of we're all kind of in this together, and so I'm constantly in the bed are and, you know, my bedr teams, constantly interfacing with the marketing team, constantly having conversations with our salespeople to understand the quality of our opportunities and and a big part of why we've sort of created the revenue operations part of our business is so that we could have unbiased reporting across all those things to better understand where we can be more successful. It's kind of all like happened organically at the same time, and sometimes I think we're a little like, oh, everybody's sort of moving around and there's the grounded beneath our feet is a little shaky, but we're kind of building the building the platforms as we go up and and it's working so far. That's great to hear. I mean, the more than that can happen organically, the easier it is to maintain, I believe, because there's nothing artificial about the way you guys are setting that up. It's hard to scale. I've seen that. I've seen the challenges with that. I imagine a lot of that comes down to the culture and the way that you lead the team. You've got a team of bdrs there and let's dig into because I know for most of our marketers they're going to think, hey, this is the sales conversation, but really it's again two sides of the same coin. It's almost like two halves of the same page, like we're not even on different sides here. It's really just a continuation of a story. So talk me through. Let's say you guys are planning a campaign. What are what are the types of parameters you think about? Are you going after a single account? You guys exclusively ABM, Abx, what do you want to call it? Are you running broader based campaigns, industry verticals? What do you guys do? We've tried a lot of different things. You know, today we're predominantly focused on an avm kind of that adm, maybe x, ABS, whatever you want to call it, methodology. And you know what's driving that? Really is the type of customer that we think we can best serve. We've done a lot of work in taking critical looks at who are ICEPS? What's our addressaball market? How many companies is that is what's our CEV, finding the sweet spot there and understanding what types of marketing campaigns work and don't work for those types of companies. We have a pretty strict ICP when it comes to both companies that we know that we can best solve their kind of problems and pain points and that we know are good fits for the type of business that we're running right, given the fact that we're an agency, you know, we have client minimums and things like that that sort of drive a lot of the conversations that we're trying to have, especially the customers that we are trying to get, and so that's been a big focus of ours for the last, call it six to twelve months. Has Been Okay, let's really hone in on who is our ideal customer and then as we expand into different services or or different products. You know, we have a whole division of the company that's focused on life cycle marketing, SMS, APP out of home. We have a whole division of the company that's focused on affiliate and influencer and podcast right. And so as we spent up these services and get a better understanding of the product market fit and who the customers are for that we can become more intelligent about how we do that ABM, you know, campaign or try to understand how we can expand our marketing towards some of those other companies. So it's been a really interesting test case for the what...

...works and what doesn't. And, you know, as we've kind of become more mature as a revenue and marketing org there's a revenue organ specifically in the marketing team we've gotten a little better at honing in on what works and what doesn't for that customer base. So that ideal, you know, customer that we want to get. So talk to me about that. The interplay with the bed team and marketing, because we were talking before we hit record. There's this concept. You could call it air cover, you could call beginning of the bow tie, like we were saying before, but there's something that marketing can do to support business development efforts that business development in and of itself cannot accomplish to the same degree without the support of marketing. Said, what's that distinction? What's the kind of support they can run and and what should marketers be looking for so they can identify those opportunities? Yeah, you know, it's funny. We were talking about this before we went on the air and it's funny talking about this kind of into context of where does business development need to live as a marketing our sales because it's it is both and it's neither and you can't have, I don't think you can have a successful business development engine, certainly not a successful engine of Btr's people who are whose job it is is to identify and kind of brain in quality opportunities and, you know, identify pain points and identify problems and communicate with those people on a one to one level. I don't think you can have any of that without a marketing engine behind it. And you know, if I was going to tell somebody, hey, somebody asked me, hey, if you know would you start a where this kind of company, would you start a business development team or marketing team? And say marketing team, because at the end of the day, the scalability of having people go out and try to identify people based on kind of problems they might identify or pain points from that identify, it's just not there. And your marketing team or the marketing team has so much more at its disposal to kind of broad in that message and identify people that we think of the best type of customer, Identify your, you know, kind of people at the ICP. But they just have the scale to go out and say, Hey, we've got content, we've got thought leadership, we've got conference panels, we've got round tables and dinners and whatever it might be that we're going to have in our quiver of arrows to send to these types of people to just get them interested. And then, once you have that build up, you can have your business development team identify those top prospects, identify those people that are on your website, those people that are downloading content, and I think if you don't have that already, you're sort of asking a team to do two things. You're asking a business development team to be both, you know, that kind of like air cover approach, and then be sort of snipers and find those individuals in the kind of in the noise, and you just can't do it without, you know, sort of bilying your your own the strategy is a BEDR team, which is like to have interpersonal one on one conversations with your prospects. The more marketingly you get, the wider of birth you have to you have to swing as a BEDR team. The less your emails sound good, the less your phone calls matter. You don't you run out of bandwidth. You know, you can only call an email so many people a day and it doesn't it just doesn't work quite as well. Yeah, and then we see the temptation, of course, to use more and more automation. Now I'm a fan of automating standard procedures, routines, things like that. I'm a big fan of technology. You're in REVOP, so you get it. You're a big fan of operationalizing things, but there's a degree to which you can't do that on that personalization level, on the individual level, especially when you're taking account Bas marketing approach. There's a narrow focus. There's a thoughtfulness that has to go into applying that broader message from marketing down to the individual level, like how does this speak to them and their needs and their challenge that they've communicated or that we've intuited from maybe materials we've picked up. Absolutely I'm a huge fan of...

...automation. We're lucky here in that we have a really great text act are. We've been able to invest in besting class technology to help us be more efficient. We've got a great sales engagement platform, we have a great crm. You know, we have really good platforms behind us. Now, I think exactly there's temptation when you get to that point of Oh, we've got to I've got a triple out I've got to triple my outbound outreach because I don't have anybody kind of driving me interest. I don't have anybody that I can look at, go to the website and say, Oh, Hey, this company's been on our website. Let's identify that and use you know, kind of target that person. Without that you, yeah, you fall into the trap of, Oh, I'm just going to send a bunch of emails. Oh it's too it's too much of a pain to go onto this person's linkedin. Every time I want to send an email, if I have a sequence, I want to, you know, go find a piece of personalized information to talk to them about. Every time it just takes too long and you fall into that trap. And then you see your open rates go from we've had email open rates as high as fifty percent. But you see your email open rates, which, you know, we're pretty happy, like I'm pretty happy with a fifty percent open right on a gold email. I'll take that. But you see your open rights drop to forty two, thirty to twenty five, to twenty and the volume increase just doesn't doesn't make up for the fact that you're cheapening the you know, the the value that people that you have which are, you know, having good conversations with your prospects, and I imagine you know for my experience, I've worked with cars. It's got to be over a hundred early stage companies. It depends a bit on what you're selling. Right where you're as an agency, you're effectively selling like hey, we're going to do a lot of things for you, but we're still going to be a lot of things for you. So there's a relationship there that can't start on spray and pray ground like that's not a great foundation for building upon. So there's something there that I think is not just unique to you guys, certainly not just unique to the agency world either, but in those relationship driven conversations or where you're trying to build that relationship very specifically for a longer period of time, maybe for a larger purchase, longer sales cycle, it's more and more necessary to be careful with the things that were automating. I've seen that before, definitely, and I think you guys have certainly seen that as you played with all the different knowledges that are out there. Now I'm going to ask you, because I'm a tech nerd and is probably some listening right now, top like three or four tools in your stack that you love. So I live and die by sales force. I'm not unique in that way, but I I'm mean, not into the vision of lightning. Yeah, and I'm the only person that's like, if it's not in sales sports, that doesn't exist and everybody hates me and I say it all the time and everybody still hates me. I really enjoy outreach. Out Reaches our sales engagement platform. It's great. I've used a number of different tools and I really like that. One. One tool that we use that I am a huge fan of and it's really helpful for what we try to do, especially with digital marketing, is a tool called pathematics and they just got acquired by a company called Sensor Tower, I think. But they track spend on on social channels, which is really difficult to find, real time trends on facebook, on Instagram, on twitter, and then on some display channels like youtube, really hard to find that information. They've done a great job at sourcing it and making it good. You know, like those are black boxes facebook. You're never going to get it exact number, but directionally it's fantastic. Obviously, you know open sense, because I think that that is critical for us as a team to get the message out there. We have so many people at our company that interface with clients and and not everybody at the company is under the revenue arm right. We have a whole account management team that have been here for years and they they are the ones that talked to to our client base and, as we've talked about, our clients are, are, and have been and probably still will continue to be, one of our major sources of business, especially for, you know, a company like ours where it's a lot of relationship driven, you know, a new business. So to be able to really get that message out to multiple...

...types of people, not just you know prospects, but our clients, is his invaluable. Yeah, there's definitely something that tends to drop off in some spaces where it's like all right, well, we're worried about getting them through the door. Okay, get them to sign on the dotted line and then, you know, we see the the expansion opportunities or maybe the the long tail of a customer relationship, but we can easily forget that on the sale side. Now your your revenue operation, so you have a unique role because you're thinking top of funnel to the bottom of funnel to expansion funnel. Like. How do you manage between all of those different areas? What does revenue operations look like for you, because there any any area focus that you don't go into, or are you like top to bottom everything? If I had to pick the areas that I'm most focused in, it's probably business development through client success. We have a marketing team that I work really closely with, obviously from an operations perspective, but they also have we have a couple marketing operations people and that's their background. So I work really closely with them. I think, you know, slowly we're just going to integrate everything and our marketing operations will probably be separate but still integrated very closely with the revenue operations. But you know, recently it's been a big focus of ours is on optimizing our client success engine and are on boarding and really getting clients from kind of sale through the on boarding process. You know, we're not a tech company, but we still have to bring people into the ecosystem and get into their platforms and introduce, you know, ourselves to them as their new strategic thought leader partner. You know, we're not just in their pressing buttons. You know, we're not just in their moving levers on on facebook or Google or display. You know, we really, we really truly believe in a holistic, holistic approach from channel strategy, and so we aren't just, you know, yes, you know, we're not just like the yes men. We're in there really, you know, looking at the account strategically and making recommendations and really thinking at a high level about the long term health of our our clients business. And that takes a lot. You know, that takes a time. That requires, you know, we have to build a lot of trust to build those relationships and and that's something that we've been really focused on, is is the client success angle of okay, Hey, how are we? How are we on boarding people? What's the sustainability of it? What's our thought process behind it? Why are we doing these steps and how do we, you know, create the best client relationship from start to finish? HM, a lot that goes into that, damn a lot. And I imagine. So you've got business development reps running their cadences, running their work and you're overseeing them and you're also over seeing the revenue operation side. Do you have anybody working on the kind of task management there, or do you work with the leadership of the various teams? Like, are you the Revenue Operations Guy? No, I thankfully I have a great team of people and Revenue Operations and I mean they keep me alive because they're the you know, they're really helping drive a lot of the a lot of the initiatives that we that we want to do forward. So we have, there's three people on the revenue operations team today and we're growing both. Were actually growing both teams, but what revenue operations is a big focus of ours, and so we're growing the revenue operations team pretty quickly over the next three to six months to try to really scale up and get ourselves the sort of support that we need because ideally, the way that I envision revenue operations here within is everything from enablement to technology, to analytics and performance to sort of the operations aspect of it. Like, you know, how do we get these people in and what's the lead flow? And once the sales process, you know, I spent a month redesigning our sales process. You know, we've spent time redesigning our on boarding process, and so it's been a it's a big initiative, a big undertaking for us to get kind of everybody on the same page, because I think if we can get, and ideally we will get, all of that kind of housed in one area, I think we're going to see a lot more optimization. The streamlining is just going to make us more...

...successful because we just won't have those delays that come from, you know, three different teams marketing, sales and client success, all thinking about different mat tricks, all thinking about different performance and at the end of the day, as we know, all anybody cares about is new clients and profit. Like at the end of the day, the revenue organ is there to make the company money. It's not a not a secret, and so if, if what we're all doing isn't aligned to, you know, drive revenue, then you know we're all kind of wasting our time. Well, I'm encouraged to hear that you guys are focused so much on on growing the revenue operation side, because I've seen a lot of companies who, well intentioned, give someone the title, make them responsible for project management and then they end up also being the task drivers and been performing a lot of work themselves. So it's great to hear you're building the team. Great to hear you guys are growing. I imagine that that's going to continue to make you guys more successful. Now, zooming out from what's happening within you've sat within marketing and sales orgs. You've come at this from all the different angles. What's something you're seeing out there that marketers aren't doing that they should start doing, or maybe are doing that you just beg them to stop doing? It's a good question. We have this challenge, but I think you know, just brolly, the thing that I'm seeing that I think is really, really good, and this has been a this is certainly been a covid led endeavor right is I was actually I was at in person at a conference two weeks ago. That was the first in person conference I've been to in eighteen months. It was great conference, but I think the sort of blend of in person and virtual conferences that marketers need to continue to develop is going to be invaluable to building good relationships now, because I don't think we're ever going to be able to confidently get or confidently know that you're going to get a volume of people in person, whether it's the people you want, because we all know that we can be really successful from home and there's plenty of things that you can only do in person, but I think that blend of sort of virtual and in person and continuing to build on that is going to be huge. The other thing I would say that we that we want more of that. We want to do more of that. I would love to have more people do is really really high level, executive level sort of conversations, not just, you know, fifty executives in a room, but a small format round table, small format, high engagement events that aren't sales. You know, I think the thing that everybody should stop doing is have marketing beast sales. They're not. Have Marketing be marketing. Have Marketing drive thought leadership, drive ideas and drive content and and really, you know, be information. That's it. You know, I think free in formation online, right. We used to have a we did a thing. We still have it. It's called a marketing pulse. Marketing pulse is a part of our website. You go to withincom and you go to the marketing pulse. It is real time trends in different industries in terms of kind of CPMS and revenue driven from different social channels and costs on those different social channels and we started doing that basically day two of everybody working from home and it's that's just information. We give it out. We don't, you know, need anything from it. And the more of that that marketing teams can really do, where you don't have to enter the sales funnel and you don't have to you know, you don't have to become, you know, one of the little like leads and sales force that you're just going to get a bunch of calls and emails about, but just you can get people that information. The more that marketing can do that, I...

...think, the better everybody's going to be at their jobs, because it's just information sharing and knowledge sharing. HMM, there resonates with me. I'm a no opttions guy. I have a hard time giving up my email. I'm a marketer in a sales guy. I get to sit in the Middle Right I'm director of sales and marketing and I would just love more value in every touch point, every time, with limited costs or requirements to anyone who's going to participate, because you remember those brands, they sit with you. We recently I had one of my sales team members who did a great job sharing value with a perspective customer and that person actually left the company. I believe is during the sales process. But since then we've gotten I think it's three referrals now from that same first organization. Because when you make that kind of impact, when you make them see the light, they believe in something, they're excited about something. They take that with them where they go, they talk to their friends about like that kind of excitement and value require. Often there's nothing, there's nothing that forces them. It's not better for them as an experience if they do that and they're going to recall that, I think, by and large, based on the quality of the engagement. Absolutely, and I think the thing that keeps people from doing it is that you have to really be willing to, like let that tail go. You have to, you have to buy in to knowing that you were not going to see Roy. You're never going to get measurable are Ay From It. It's impossible. There's too many touch points to have. You know, if you figure out the attribution quite I can't tell if it's first or last or middle. It recrects. If you if you figure out the attribution question. Holly just you're good. Yeah, I said this when I started here. You need six months to get a BEDR team really to drive, you know, roy value, to see any of the value that it Bedr team is going to drive, you need six months, nine months maybe, depending on your sales cycle. I mean that's a hard pill to swallow. That's really hard to swallow if you're if your leadership is saying, yeah, you're going to invest a bunch of money right now and you're not going to see anything on it for nine months, especially with things like that, you know, really high value content, things that drive, you know, relationships. In that way, you might not actually ever see the you know, a direct one to one correlation to your revenue until a year and I think the you know, after six months it starts to get really hairy. You start to you know, you're the marketing team or you're the sales team, you're like, I need leads, I need business, we need to grow. And so I know we said that we weren't going to use this as an explicit sales tool, but hey, I know these guys are on the site and they looked at the content. So I'm at a pepper on the sales emails. Yeah, I hit them up every day and thrown upton. We're just kind of we're gonna start doing it. Yeah, and it's really hard, I think, to rectify the fact that you've got to like buy in and you've really got a double really got a double down on that, withoutt falling into that trap and and I know we do it, I know other companies do it where you know you're like, damn, I shouldn't have done that, I really shouldn't said I shouldn't, I shouldn't use this tool. This tool is doing great and then we turn it into this thing and now we're not getting as much traction because we put the opt in email above the fold instead of below the fold. Right, we put the you can't ex out of it, you have to put in an email or oh we're we started cooking people and it's just it all kind of goes off the rails. Yeah, well, that's that's some good advice, I think. You know, we'll hear from marketers some feedback, you know, as to whether they believe that or not. Hopefully, hopefully we get some some controversy over, because I think that there are some who can make it successful, but I'd like to see more of US pushing towards that, a brighter day where we're just creating a lot of value out there in the marketplace, and I think it can be. You know, this is not to say I think it's even more successful. I think the more value you're providing to people, the more of those people, like you're saying, are going to organically think of you, even...

...if it's not really organic, because you drove them to the thing. They it was. They did not find it necessarily on them themselves, but you drove them to the thing and now they're going to organically share that with their networks. And I think it can be extremely successful if if you're willing and any if you understand and know and can communicate clearly to your leadership team that hey, this is this is something we have to do for six to nine months and we have to do it. We have to just know that it's going to pay off later down the road in spades. But we've got to be committed to being knowledge shares. We got to be committed to driving as much value for people as possible without them having to come into our ecosystem. Some of those people will and later on more and more and more of those people will. Yeah, well, Taylor, I appreciate your viewpoints on this. Appreciate you joining us. Let's say people are going to want to follow you, they're going to hear more from you. Where do you like to spend your time online? If we're talking to work, I let's say your social your work. Where do you like to spend time? I'm a big fan of a lot of the the newsletters and kind of industry. I guess trade sites, right. I read a lot. I read every morning I probably read fifteen different morning news letters and then I I do this for my team. Actually, I take those newsletters, I find the most interesting or the most relevant articles and I put them into a google sheet. Y. I just like it probably takes me fifteen to twenty minutes every morning because at this point I'm good at scanning through those newsletters and then I'll read all those and so those are, you know, those are for us. It's a lot of retail. So it's modern retail, it's glossy, it's morning brew, it's all those different types of sites and I think you can just pull so much interesting information from how people are thinking, what they're doing. You know what their challenges and pain points are, what a lot of big companies are seeing. And if I see that a startup is Ip owing, I know that that's not only going to affect that start up who's Ip owing, but also every one of their competitors, knowing that that company's about to get a massive influx of cash, and that in and of itself is just more it makes it easier to put myself in my team to put themselves in their positions to hey, your problems are not just that everybody is struggling in retail. That's not a that's not a hot take. Everybody is struggling and people are making moves to not struggle and that means raising money and that means cutting prices and that means trying to figure out how to fix supply chain. It's, you know, ton of things. So that's probably where I spend most of my time when I'm, you know, trying to just inform myself about what's going on across the space. It's good advice. I like the way you're summarizing that. Now, if people want to find within online, you said within DOCC correct, withincom is our site. We have the marketing pulse that I've mentioned, as well as a blog that we update frequently. You know, we're very active on on Linkedin. You know, we post our articles with the post at leadership. We try to you know, we try to share as much as we can about what it is that we're you know, the we're thinking about. I'm in that our clients of thinking about. We have webinars and other things from time to time. So withincom is the best place to find out information about us, but also, you know, again racked up on Linkedin and some other sites where we try to share as much as we can. Awesome, Taylor, thanks for joining us on the show. It's been exciting to get, you know, a business development, I can't say a sales guys approach, but a business development approach, because you sit. You sit in your own independent Org here, but it's been great to get your take on things. I think, you know, the marketing folks who are going to be listening to this are going to really enjoy this. It's been informative for me and and we'll have you on again soon. Thanks, T rex. Hey Man, it was this was great. I exist in a lot of different places. Let's get to talk about how they all kind of coming together. Awesome example. Thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you would give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to get a little more inspiration for their next campaign. If you want to learn more about the company behind the show, had to open sensecom. That's open ske and skecom will catch you on the next episode.

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