Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 60 · 2 months ago

The Blueprint for a Successful Content Strategy with Proposify’s Nadia Milani

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Are you creating edutainment content? How about infotainment video content? If the answer to both these questions is “no" - this episode is for you. This week, Growth Marketing Camp welcomes Nadia Milani, the VP of Marketing at Proposify.

Nadia joins us to shed some light on the benefits of producing highly engaging and entertaining content that’s also educational. She advocates ripping up the red tape when conversing with customers and discusses the importance of buy-in and alignment from the top to support a strategy that produces results. That’s exactly how she’s built a winning content strategy.

Finally, she articulates how to best establish yourself in the company as the new VP of marketing. Another exciting episode is ready for you to tune in and enjoy!

Welcome to growth marketing camp, podcast, powered by open sense, where we sit down with leaders and founders from diverse backgrounds and marketing, tech and beyond to explore what it takes to build a leading brand that's shaving the world of B Two B let's get into it. Ladies and gentlemen, this is bobby and orange, Co host of growth marketing camp. I am extremely excited today to be joined by Nadia Milani. She is VP of marketing at proposify. Nadia, welcome to the PODCAST. Thanks, Bobby. I am so happy to be here. Yeah, you know, we were talking beforehand and you're letting your kids, uh, leaving them a little bit on the hook here. Would to chat with me today, so I really appreciate that. Um, I'm excited to talk to you today because, you know, and doing a little bit of initial research into you and the proposified brand, one of the things that I was immediately struck by was just the type of content that you're making. I've watched two or three of your your most recent videos on your website on Youtube, and there's clearly like a concerted effort here to create highly engaging and entertaining content, but then also super educational content. You know, there's a video I watched about C S M s and the role in expansions and opselves. That's actually super relevant to me and my company. So clearly there's there's there, there's an approach or strategy there. Can you just maybe speak a little bit to that, like is that what your task to do when you took this role? Is this a specific approach that that you're you're bringing and if so, I'm kind of curious, you know what, what leads you in that direction as sort of almost like a pillar, I guess, to your strategy, if, if, if, in fact is yeah, so I think proposified, just even from the early days, was just really into content building, and you'll notice like from like the Youtube Channel. So I started like proposify in October. We we did have a little bit of a law. So there was probably about a year or two years where we were really going strong in the content space. We were kind of sporadic things here and there Um, but we decided to like look at our content that we had and let to figure out like where the where the gaps? So what can we do that will better engage with our our customers and and you know, prospects, and we looked at like what we currently had. We were doing some really good things, like every release, our stated proposals, which like a love, like you just like downloaded. It's what our customers expect, our prospects love. But, you know, we thought we could just do better job at connecting with with our with just the community, and we speak to our I CPS sales, the sales community and some marketers. So we decided to start building content and it was literally sparked by conversation with Kyle Racki, or CEO, who came from an agent, that agency, so he understands like content, which is off the battle, to be honest with you, is having a CEO that just gets it. One only gets it, but it's like in, like totally in and involved, and Kyle, Kyle was that. Kyle was involved. He was there shooting.

I actually couldn't come to one of the shoots, and he's just like totally involved, and that, for what like first is like the one of the most important things to like roll with the content strategy like this or the one that you've noticed. And so we we literally just started, like we just said we're gonna do this and let's start putting some ideas together of like what conversations resonate with sales and marketing. So we just jotted all those down, we had some internal brainstorming meetings and we literally just went out and started doing it, like so there wasn't like this overthinking. It's like, okay, we need like x amount of budget or hundreds of thousands of dollars, or we're gonna like hire all these people that we decided like, we're gonna just like use the proposalfi people, peeps, which is also something that could or may go really wrong by using staff, but luckily we have some really talented people at a proposify, and we just started to books and shoots and we so we started with the closing show. It's kind of like the entertainment, like your entertainment. We started with pods, like sales pods, and then there are second one was the one that you just saw about the expansion, and then there was like all these funny bits that we were doing. So the other thing that we didn't like we just started testing, and this is like probably not like the approach that companies take. They're like yeah, there's a spinoff series here. We're like two episodes in and we're like let's create more of this. So we decided to create the sad life as well, more of like a ski based series, where we take like sales, marketings alignment and just create these kind of like funny skip based two to three minute videos. And and honestly, like the other thing is is like when do you launch something like this? Like so we were kind of like we have all these amazing, what we thought amazing videos, but then like, you know, the stuff going on with the market, like do we launch this? Do we not launch this? And we're just like yeah, let's just let's just launch this. And you know, what we've seen is like great engagement, lots of views and people were actually happy that we we launched it because it was like the humor that they needed during the day, things that they were sharing, like and it's it's we've had some really great positive response and that's exactly what we wanted to do and we were thrilled. Yeah, well, I mean it's it's totally refreshing. I mean the first video top of fold on your website is hilarious. I mean, whether or not that that was there before, before you joined or if that's new. I mean it just you feel what's so interesting is that I feel like there's tons of content out there that marketers are paying attention to, whether it's podcast, blogs, playbooks, whatever, and invariable what ends up happening. It feels like everyone kind of has like a very similar flavor to what they're doing and...

...it's to some extent it all kind of is just blah, you know, it's just all kind of melts into one and and and to see the work that you're doing, I mean, I'm I'm not just blowing smoke. It clearly it stands out and and one of the things you mentioned that I've actually heard consistently from multiple folks who have had a content strategy that's as robust as the one that you've described is that buy in from the top, that it's not always going to just be like a lone wolf who says, you know, this is what I'm gonna be undertaking. No, and in fact, in fact, there was an interview I had with an I t focused company in what I want to say it was Utah, where they actually built like an in house studio for, you know, videos and and they were doing live webcast Um and they're now building sort of like a film studio as a part of like their marketing team. And, you know, another team where, you know, they brought in a TIKTOK expert influencer to come in and build out content strategy around that. And so that shows that to do it really well, and I guess this probably holds true for any major marketing strategy, you've got to have that buy in, an alignment and and potentially even expertise at the top to kind of like support a strategy like the one that produces results that you're describing. I want to take a step back. I want to come back to the content, but I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you. You know, I read an Article One of your interviews and, Um, you talk about being successful in in a marketing role and the first thing that you mentioned was was sort of the effort that you put into speaking with with customers. Okay, so do you mind just maybe kind of like sharing with us a little bit about how you think about speaking with customers and how that maybe influences the work that you end up producing? Yes, I would love to touch on that. It's so important and I and I worked, I've lead marketing company or marketing teams where we didn't do that. We can talk to our customers as as we should and and sometimes there's different reasons for that. It's it could be like there could be the bureaucracy on, like in the organization or like not figuring out, like how do I book these calls? Can I call my customer, these customers directly? Honestly, working at proposify, it was actually refreshing because it was like you want to talk to customers, just go in and talk to customers. There was there was no like there was no red tape about talking customers. So that so that was it was easy to do that and because we did, and I did, I started to make it like a process with myself my team where we were scheduling at least like ten to twelve hours of customer calls a border to learn a lot about our boat customers, things that were validating what we had already thought that we're paid points. Also just like new things that were like fascinating, like where you know certain things that our customers were getting stuck on or certain things that our customers can't live without. Starts to really...

...understand, like, okay, what are their pain points? And allow, sounds like cliche and like, but it was. It was really to understand it, but also to hear from the customer. It resonates as so much with the market, with the marketing team, and helped us create pieces, like content pieces, that that could resonate with their customers because we started to understand what it is that they needed, what it was that they loved, what com moments with their product, and it just really made us like better marketers and what. I know that sounds like vague, but we saw that with like than a mountam downloads that we would get a certain content pieces we just actually reject our whole homepage to like a lot of the new kind of research that we've done. So that flies that that as well. So far. So for the demo request button is working better. That's good. But yeah, so I think it's really important to understand the customer and early on in your career you kind of like thank yeah, I know it, or I have enough like collateral pieces here, depending on the stage you are. Just I kind of know what the customer wants, but until you speak to them, you don't. And I like to get a mix of customers, the ones that love you and are high, the high, you know, g two scores and MPs scores, but it's also great to talk to the ones that are that. We actually got Ourfer Zero Star review the other day and it bothered me. So I had, if I had to, like so I reached out and I'm like, I want to understand why we got this zero. What were the issues? Exit? So now you had to is this a product problem? Is this a customer CS? Probably what happened to get it. So then, so it's it's a balance of those. It's understanding who are the ones that love us and who we're the ones that are having problems, and how can we address it, and does that look like from a content perspective? So totally I think it's totally important and I'm so much of a fan. Yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of work, there's a lot of people linked in and like influencers that you know, talk about this and I think probably four years ago I'm like yeah, yeah, yeah, but like now I see it probably could make a difference. Yeah, it's it's always interesting because I feel like, as you know, an executive or a founder or whatever, you kind of have like a sense of the value that you're creating in the market. Why are they why are they buying what we're selling? What problems are we solving for them? And it's easy to live in a bold bubble where you just sort of live by that you deal with the results as they are, but when you actually like to sort of get down in the nitty gritty, you may hear some things that maybe sound awesome and super validating. You may hear some things that actually go totally counter to what you really believe about the value that you're creating the market. But you know, unless you're doing that, I feel like there's no way forward. Like you have you have to pay attention to what's happening down on the ground because ultimately, without the customers, there's nothing. You know that they're there. And we actually yeah, we we did actually go through an exercise of workshop internally because we we're kind of shifting like...

...messaging, and it was and we were looking at our ideal customer profile again. It was the new marketer of marketing, like you know in town, and I wanted to like just review what that what that is, and it was really interesting because we got we had people across the different squads in that session and everyone had a different idea, a bit of what what the ideal customer was, what their pain points were, and until we could validate it with qualitative data from from our customer, then we can all say, okay, it's great, we think this, but this is this is actually what's happening. Yeah, yeah, so it's really great to talk to the customer to validate those assumptions and sometimes when you've been around for a while, propose affi has been around now for no years, it's always good to check in so that because initially you may have certain problems or things that the customers love, but as the product evolves you need to check in on that, like free, only totally awesome. Well, I appreciate you you're sharing some insight into that from your perspective as a marketer. I think you know any business unit that's responsible for supporting the sustaining and growth of a business, like the more information and Intel you can get from a customer, likely the better off you'll be. You know, it's funny you referred to, you know, one of the video series is entertainment. I've seen the idea of INF attainment and this whole this whole sort of concept of, you know, building entertaining content that's either humorous. Gosh, the churn video, breakup video. That one struck a nerve. Um, definitely some, some Oscar, where the nomination performances. There, UH, a bond Zo, he's he's a CS. We have luke who used to work with us, Um, but they are actually proposal peeps like it's it's amazing. The yeah, talented. Well, there's clearly chemistry there. Um. I you know, it's interesting too, because we're seeing, you know, the likes of, you know, salesforce, for instance, just launch salesforce plus as sort of a whole new channel to engage. I am kind of curious, though. I mean, you invest in a strategy around content, you get the buy in from the CEO, you book some filming and and how are you sort of able to then articulate success? Because, you know, traditionally, I feel like you know, demand Gen you're you're you're looking at sort of top of funnel and then your conversion through the funnel and eventual to close one revenue. How do you think about articulating the impact and success of a content strategy like the one that you're implementing, because ultimately, like you have to make that case to the CFO one day. So do you mind maybe sharing a little bit about sort of, you know, how you think about quantifying something that's inherently sort of qualitative in nature? It's always hard. It is Um so the way I look at it is twofold. So I think when you're especially when you're...

...new, like you're leading the marketing department and you're you, I think it's important to like have short term winds deliver right. So what's the or quarter or two quarters? And there's momentum, then you can start pitching new ideas. Okay, we've been doing really, really well here, but these are some of the gaps that we're having. So we will get like middle to like you know, end of cycle content, where we on our stated proposals. Many different types of e books are blog content. We had some podcasting leadership, but we were missing that kind of like a top of funnel video educated entertainment, or entertainment as people call it. So it's really just pitching that idea. And so so what everyone has to understand is that it's the long game. It's not the short it's not the Thirty Day R O Y initiative. It's not gonna YOU'RE NOT gonna be able to get you know that attribution right away. It is it is a some collective agreement that we're going to try this and it's it's a long game. So we're gonna have to do this for quite some time. It's three months to really understand if we're making any progress. So I think that's really important to outline with the specifically the CFO. It's like what like what we're doing is like awesome and it's gonna keep getting us the R Y and the opportunities that we need on the pipeline. It's one percent. We're going to test while it works. I think that is also the challenge, depending on the stage of company. Are Ten million errors at last year. Thanks. Yeah, thank you, Um and so I think it's important to work with what you have, because sometimes you're not gonna be able to create the big budget. But we won't be able to do the proposed by plus like, but let's try some things that we can action, like use our own talented people. We have some really great so I come from media, so company background I want to background. So let's like let's just use what we have and to start with there and and build from that. So literally, what we're doing? We just started this initiative, like, I think we launch your first one in March, first episode, and now we're we we shot like a batch of them in April and I we're just releasing them now. So that that's really it. It's like everyone needs to understand like we're gonna try this, but we're not sure if it's gonna work in that way. Yeah, so, so I want to I want to sort of recap what I heard you say, because I think there's some really interesting points there. I think the first point is that if you're coming in new as the new VP or whatever, the big ideas are important, but you've you've got to establish yourself in the company as incredible performer that knows what they're doing. And you mentioned us deliver those quick...

...winds, like identify the low hanging fruit or or or or something aggressive, but something that you know that you can achieve, to be identified as someone who delivers on what they say they're going to deliver. So that internal credibility to be able to get buy in for bigger ideas is like a really important it really important, I think, point, like like if I'm hiring someone to come in and run marketing, it's like, yeah, I want the big things, but there's some problems right now that I need, you know, we need to kind of to solve. Need you to solve them, right. I mean phenomenal. Yeah, it's super important, like and because if you come in with the big budget ideas day one, yeah, like not, not different response. Then two, three quarters of like, you know, success, performance and momentum, and then there was okay, they this person has their ship together. They're doing builds the trust. You need to start to like pay the radical ideas. Yeah, let's just shoot this lobster video boosters and it's talk about sales marketing alignment. Right, yes, what it's to underscore it, or worth underscoring. It's show the winds. Then pitch the crazy ideas. And then the other thing that you said that I think is really smart as well is that you know the sort of approach, like we know. We know that there's a predictable flow of leads that we can drive by doing these five or ten things Um and we should allocate, you know, our budget accordingly, but I want the budget dedicated to experiments. Things that may work are going to be long tail, like we we just need to make a commitment into the strategy as a company that we're going to allocate this. We buy into the plan and we're gonna let it ride and see what happens. I mean like to like. That just makes it again, a ton of sense and I think, ultimately, to your point, you know about where you are as a company. Like, obviously that sort of provides the flexibility or or or gives you the rope, you know, the the extra slack to kind of to do that. But I think that that mix makes a ton of sense. Like, you gotta hit your fundamentals right. You gotta hit your you could totally argue too, like, because you I think that the assumption is that the later stage you are, the more budget you can get, how much funding you have, and I know there's been some funding or challenges currently. If your early stage, you also it's really it's really important to stand out, and I find these videos that are the content strategy that we're currently implementing does help us stand out. Like, for example, we're talking about this. You've reached down because you wanted to know more, and I think that's what will set you apart. Like right now we're ten million are or where we started. We were. We were number one in the category and the proposal software category. Now we have many competitors and it becomes a future war. And how do you stand out and how do you age in a way that is memorable? It's...

...content and it's it's this type of stuff where it makes everyone laugh, it puts a new face, it's share able, it's it's something that you can come back for because you trust that there's going to be more of this. Yes, and so I think it's a really great just competitive strategy totally. I want to I want to ask you a little little bit about the impact of privacy in the context of digital marketing and the context of marketing proposify. Is it headquartered in Toronto? Is that correct? It's headquartered in Halifax, but we're yeah, we we did have an office in Halifax and most of our staff is from Halifax. You're from Toronto, okay, so I think you know it's interesting because you know I'm sitting in in California and certainly there are some some local privacy regulations in this state. You know, Canada has some pretty regimented regulation. Castle is one in particular that I've I've been paying attention to a little bit more and more recently. But the general trends in privacy are taking away, I think, from the toolbox, and I'm not an expert in this, so maybe you can help illuminate this from me, but taking away some of the potential strategies and tools that have been used traditionally to maybe drive demand, to target messaging, to potentially measure impact. I'm wondering do you do you see the advent or the rise of, you know, more content as a way to counteract I mean, ultimately, if you can't, if you can't do the same things from a marketing technology standpoint today that you could before, presumably there's excess budget as a result of that. Do you see that budget being shifted into content? Is it more a is it a strategic thing to move from from some of those more digital demand Gen approaches to more content strategy? Is it just generally this is where the trends are going and it's working. People are consuming more on different devices. Is Privacy having any impact on ultimately the strategy that you're choosing, and I mean that specifically in the context of content. I know it's kind of a weird, kind of an open ended, sort of idea driven question, but do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah, I totally get it and it's something that all barketing leaders are thinking about right now. Do we have an answer? No. Yeah, we don't know how this, how this cookie is going to crumble. Yes, good one, um, but we we know that. Yeah, it's gonna get a lot of harder to target audiences. We know that it's going like our traditional methods are going to not probably perform as well. Has It impacted our day to day right now? I mean it depends on where you work and what exactly you're doing. I think that was like, you know, my counterpart store and like email, anuation business, like like they're talking about this a lot and I think that it...

...will make our jobs a lot more challenging and I think that content will help us. Really great content and the distribution and smart distribution of it is going to help brands win. What will make us stand out and as people, because you know people, you know this is like also another conversation a little bit around like B Two C, B two B, like it really is, because it's I mean this, it's already been B twop for many, many, many years. It's like it's not business to business. It's not. It's really about business to person. The way you can break through and connect to people is through great content, regardless of where you work or which brand you work for. So I've forecast that the brands who do this great and well and are creating memorable ship will win. Like and I don't and I don't think that there's many B t b brands that are doing this really, really well. Yeah, just starting to think what we're getting ahead of it. You know, there's a lot of brands of tiktok, a lot of B two B influencers on Tiktok. I've been exploring Tiktok to and really, really mean marketing PSI five, but yeah, like we've been exploring that too. So I think it's going to just get bigger and what that opportunity will get bigger. But it's for for I don't see many people doing it amazingly well right now. Why I'm like, let's let's create more of this, because let's I feel the more we get ahead of it, the more week we can potentially win. Yeah, I think of it almost like an evolution or natural selection to some extent, like survival of the fittest. And it seems like if you are equipped with the background, the buy in, the budget and just the overall capability to do it right now to the extent that that you are, which is high quality of high production value, meaningful educational entertaining, it's a great time to be really good at that. Umil Steve is doing really, really well. It's been off of the videyard brand. Like there I'm they're producing and I think that they just started producing this like not too long ago, like it was probably less than a year ago, and I don't know how many followers now. And it's will aitken and I think tyler lessard is also of artio really great, like really great content, like it's it's doing really pronominally well. I think they're on the right track. Like that is really good stuff. Um It's funny you mentioned Tyler lassard. I have cross paths with them just maybe a handful of times over the last decade and he is an absolute hustler, you know. I've seen him rocking the VIDYARD, robot like costume like trade shows before you talk about someone really committed to the brand and an absolute hustler. So's it's cool to hear that he's that there's a spin off of some content. They'll have to check that out. I want to Um maybe you wrap up by just taking a sort of a little bit more of a thirty thousand foot view of, you know, what it means to be a marketer in times like the ones...

...we're experiencing right now. And it feels almost redundant to be asking this because I feel like those are the questions two years ago to start a pandemic. But but it almost feels like we kicked the can a little bit on sort of what the like economic impact of pandemic would mean to technology companies, Um, the broader economy in general. I am kind of curious, you know, how you, as a marketer, think about marketing during sort of like a macro downturn, which I think it's safe to say we're generally experiencing globally. Is it something where you kind of gauge the situation and then react? Is it? Is it you're you're taking like measures right away? Is it more just relying and falling back on fundamentals. It sounds like maybe not. It's necessarily not necessarily the case with with your business, but is this something that keeps you up at night at all? I'm just wondering like sort of how this impacts your overall thinking or strategy and if you have any advice for marketers out there who may be in a similar position trying to figure out sort of how best to navigate, or at least think about, Um, what it means to be a marketer in times like the ones we're experiencing right now. It's tough. It's really hard to see what's happening right now. I think I read something like seventeen layoffs in the last like two to three weeks. So it's really tough and my heart goes out to, like, all the ones who've been affected by the changes. Um. I think that every company, at the best of your company's business model, like if you were heavily, heavily funded, growing into the next round of funding and you know the revenue isn't there, it's gonna be tough and I think that in that scenario it's a grim it's a grimmer outlook, but I have seen certain companies getting funding. So, you know, I think that it's not completely dismal. I think that there's there's still hope. We've been like physically responsible for a while, like we've been like really we've been watching what we're spending. We've had a few raises over the years, but we've really been dedicated to like generating revenue for I'm so that's that's like, that's good, and if you're in the same boat, then I think we're you're you're okay. As a marketer, it really does depend on like which which financial model you're what you're if you're fully funded, there's not a lot of revenue and we're gonna have to make hard choices. I think it's really important just I think just generally making the right marketing calls in that of what you're doing is r o I. Generating like as and then testing, like I had to know recently to like a lot of things, um loonsorships. We wanted to do events that we thought we were going to take part in. So I have had to make some tough choices and it sucks because you're like, all of a sudden like the no person, like no, you can't do that and no, we can't do that. And and I kind of, you know, feel bad because two or three months ago, when things were like really great, we were, you know, growing really fast, all of a sudden April just became a different one. I saw it within our proposal software company. We and we see to both rates. Within our proposal software. We...

...saw that decrease in April as well. So there's definitely just definitely we're the recession is looming, not already here. So I think as marketers, is important to just be really responsible with what you're spending. And even though we're talking about like the content and like these crazy decisions and like we are actually doing in a ficially responsible way, we're not. We don't have this big creation budget. So I think it's just being smart about where you're spending. Also evangelizing like the winds that your your team's having, like where, where are the winds? That for us, generated like more pipe, mark pipeline generated from marketing influence, probably the most we've done in like three or four years. So in like you know, you have you have to do some of that evangelizing, like wow, we created more opportunities and wow, we created a more pipeline from inbound, and so it's it's talking about that and making sure that people know we are, you know, doing things that are moving the business forward and it's about making businesses decisions, not department marketing decisions. Is really important to keep focused on. Was the impact, yes, in this decision. Yeah, but it's it's not easy, it's not fun. It's so much fun when you have like huge budgets and you can spend and there's not much worry, but when it comes to this type of climate, it's time to just be wise about your spending. Yeah, yeah, that's probably a good general advice. Is just be wise, right. I mean doesn't mean cut everything and doesn't mean yes to everything. It means, like you just ultimately, like my perspective on it is, you know, at the end of the day it's a brand, but it's a company, it's a business. Businesses objectives are to make money, ultimately make profits delivered to shareholders or whatever. Right. So, like, is what my decision, the decision making today, gonna help me make money and profit? Or is it? Is it potentially a cost that goes into a black hole never to be seen again, and you just got to kind of have that balancing act and maybe lean more towards just the sure thing right now, even if it's, you know, the potential upside is less, but but at you know, it limits the potential downside potentially. So it's like putting budgets completely. That's the other thing, like because they we we've even done this like cost analysis, only we all met as an executive team and we're like, okay, what do the next two months look like? Right? But we made conscious decision not to like cut budget but like D on things that we know will will deliver, because if if we're not spending at all, then that also has its risk as well. We don't know exactly what's gonna come, what's coming in the next quarter. We know it's probably not going to be great. Will it be as bad as Covid I'm not sure. That's kind of like the risk and you know in all of this, but it's it's I feel like just kind of balance it and then just taking it month...

...by month, and that's that's probably really important too, like don't make decisions for the rest of the year, like let's just look at quarter by quarter, check in month by month and just as things change. Yeah, well, I really appreciate your perspective on that and the advice. I think our audience is going to get a lot out of today's conversation. I think you're fortunate to have you on it as a guest today. Thanks so much for joining me for this interview. I had so much fun. Bobby. Thank you. I usually prepare for these things, but I trusted you just to like do a fire start that side. I haven't looked at one note and I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much. Yeah, no, this was awesome and, Um, yeah, I would love to have you on in the future, maybe once we get through a few of those months and quarters and see how the chips fall and have to come back. Awesome, awesome. Well, thanks for coming on and we will talk to you again soon. Nadia. Everyone, thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you would get it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to strengthen their skills with tips and inspiration. You want to learn more about the company behind the show, head to open sense dot com. That's O P E N s e. n s e Dot Com. We'll catch you on the next episode.

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