Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 74 · 1 month ago

The Outside-In Approach to Copywriting with Konrad Sanders

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week, Konrad Sanders, Founder, CEO & Content Strategist of a charming London-based agency, The Creative Copywriter, joins us on the Growth Marketing Camp to share all his tips and tricks with our audience.

Jass and Konrad dig deep into creative ways you can use to uncover what your customers want (versus what you think they want). Konrad answers, what are some of the biggest issues he sees in many SaaS startups and brands, and why he always follows “the rule of one” in his landing page copywriting.

Whether you are a freelance copywriter, an in-house copywriter, or a business owner looking to enhance your copy skills, this episode is just the roadmap to the demand-led copywriting you were waiting for!

Welcome to Growth Marketing Camp podcast powered by Open Sense, where we sit down with leaders and founders from diverse backgrounds in marketing, tech and beyond to explore what it takes to build a leading brand that's shaving the world of B two B. Let's get into it here, everybody, This is Jazz Spinning, co host a growth working camp. Welcome to another exciting episode where I'm happy to welcome Conrad Sanders, founder, CEO and content strategist at The Creative Copywriter. Conrad started off his career marketing as a solo freelancer and today he runs a London based agency working with big brands such as Adidas, Hyundai and TikTok. Conrad, it's great to have you on the show. Welcome, thanks for having me. I'm pumped. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. No, I'm excited, and I'm also happy that your bumps because we're just talking that it's super late for you because you're in London right now, it is late. Yeah, I am. I can't really drink caffeine, but I had half a can of clove to just like make sure I'm awake for this, so that for me, that's quite a lot. I know you're a coffee drinker, right, but for me, that's like my version of coffee. I can't do it. If I drinking coffee, it makes me go a bit crazy. So oh man, hey, well, um, yes, I'm addicted to coffee. I've actually started to like I'm trying to drink less. I was addicted to coke at one point, but I now only drink it for um, if I'm having like a carbonation attack, and what we gotta need something carbonated besides that. Since you know you, you know you obviously are very familiar with TikTok. One of the latest TikTok trends people were making their own homemade coke with a glass ice, balsamic vinegar, and then soda water. Have you tried that? I have not, but I told another fellow coke drinker about this little hack and he said that he would try it, and I don't know that if he did. I'm not a fan of balsamic vinegar, so I'm not sure how that would taste. I'm a fan of it, but usually like on salad's resample, I'm not sure about in the drige. But I mean, don't knock until you try to do it right. Yeah, yeah, maybe trying and let me know what you think. Maybe a really so, Um, I kind of wanted to talk a little bit about not only what it is you guys do, but also just copyrting in general, especially you guys are working with a lot of big brands. But before we even start, just tell me you real quick, um, what it talk? Talk to me with your own words. What is the creative copywriter? What do you do? And who is your your guys target audience? Yeah, okay, so this is like my my field that I give to prospects a few times a week. So what we do in in a in a very small nutshell is strategy and words and to expand on that, we blend the science of data driven content strategy and psychology with the art of creative copyrights basically to help brands get their words right every set of the customer journey. And we'd like to call that full fund word opts ization. So it's all about moving people down that funnel towards conversion and beyond and helping them to essentially grow revenue using copling content to grow revenue. At the end of the final and I won't dive too much into what we offer from a strategy perspective. But you know, as you said, we worked with a lot of big brands. We've got some nice, big sexy brands in our on the books like added Ass, Home and I and say these bands Hanasonic, TikTok obviously, but our bread and butter at the moment, perhaps kind of like one of our main focus areas on the other side of the spectrum is actually helping sas startups and scale ups kind of grow and helping them on that journey because I think, you know, we're sector agnostic, but this is involved to be one of our biggest areas. I think it's kind of a natural collaboration because you know, tech products and brands are often born from the brains of techie people developed us who may not be...

...the best at communicating that technology to their target audience. And that's where you know, a crystal key value proposition comes in. It's where creative copyrighting comes in. And at the same time, the other side of what we offer, which is content marketing, naturally lends itself well to the SAS world because content marketing is all about you know, taking prospects on that journey educating them, nurturing them, and then converting them at the right time. And you know, when it comes to the tech a product like the SAS Blackhorn a tool, you know, often you might be solving kind of a new problem or solving a pain point in a new way. So you know your target prospects and they might not be searching for exactly what you offer, in which case you need to reach out to them. You need to educate them and take them on that longer conversion journey, which is where content marketing comes into plan. So that's all about building funnels and all the stuff I'm very passionate about. Yeah, and it sounds like you are. And by the way, like the company that I work for right in, the company that started this podcast, Open Sense, it's a sad startup. So I guess where you're already both to word there, that's what I'm here secretly, Well definitely will will talk a little bit later. But it's interesting because we also exactly what you mentioned. We deal with the same thing. We've got a SAS product that not a lot of people are searching for email signatures, right not it seems kind of boring. Um, not a lot of people I'm last you aren't specifically researching it. Yes, the people who are searching for it, there's high intent, but there's a whole other world. For example, at open Sense with our evil signature tool that we have to create a lot of education and awareness around because not a lot of people realize that I said channel, it is a marketing channel and a compliance and like, there's so much that you can do. But our team, right, and I'm leading the marketing team, our biggest struggle is always how do we maximize and how do we create this awareness in a and how do we position open Sense alongside all of the other tools that people are using right? People are using ad tools, they're using retargeting tools. How can we position your email, just day to day email alongside the rest of those channel And it's always been a challenge because we live and breathe it. So I remember when I first came in, I had this kind of fresh perspective, and now I'm having to force myself to step out of Open Sense a lot of times and review some of the blogs. It's like, no, I've been working in this company now for about three years, and I have to constantly remind myself to get out, Get out of sass, Get out of the B two B right. You you had a hilarious picture that you shared on your LinkedIn about the lemon sass, you know, sad companies and how they Yeah, and I saw that, and I'm like, it's ridiculous because it's so true, you know, and we have a lot of sass companies. We're looking at other sas companies for you know, inspiration, and they're looking at other sas companies for inspiration. So I'm sure you see it. You see it all the time. Um, what do you think is like the biggest issue in a lot of stuff startups and brands, especially if it's more of a complex or a technical product. Yeah, I mean you touched on a few points there, and I think I would probably answer this with the saving points that you made in a way or maybe just to kind of you know, extend them for a second. So I think one thing you talked about is like stepping out right having that outside perspective and there's this cognitive bias or the cursive knowledge, and what it is is that you know, it's it's natural for us as humans. We have pre existing knowledge, right, and it's almost very hard for us to just put ourselves in the shoes of our target prospect. So when you communicate something, often you missed them all because you have this pre existing knowledge. You know what's good about your offering, about your products, about whatever it is you're talking about. You have all that context, right. And it might be that you spend two months in the boardroom creating this perfect one liner or perfect piece of content or perfect value proposition. The...

...reality is your target prospects might see it for two seconds or if you're lucky, two minutes, right, And so there experience of that. You know, if those words it's going to be very very different to yours. They don't have all the context or the background. And yeah, we call it the curse of knowledge. It is a very hard thing to remove that knowledge from your head. As you know, you kind of just demonstrated the story of how you had a fresh perspective. So, and it's quite interesting when a new market here comes into it, a SAS company or any company, they have to first really learn what the product is and get to grips with it. And if it's a really tough job, then they're probably you know, that company is probably not doing the best job of crystallizing their value proposition and making it clear enough, because if it's taking months and months and months to really understand the value of it and what what it is and what it does, then you know, how are you going to be able to convince and convert your target audience in like I said, a few seconds or a few minutes. I think that's one of them, um not, you know, having having this assumption that prospects will be reading things in in the way that you are. You also mentioned jargon, like the B two B world especially just it's just jam packed full of jargon, these overused buzzwords and phrases and things that you know, you're just kind of borrowing from other places and not really drilling down into what does that actually mean? You know, what's the reality? What does that mean? Why should they care? As well? And I think those are some of the foundational problems that that sas companies have. I think another one is, I like to say, proposing on the first date. This is kind of not just in the SASS world, but I'd say companies in most industries is just again I think it's very I call it like inside out thinking rather than outside in so it's it's it's like, oh, we've got this great product and we can people are just gonna love it, rather than truly trying to understand where is the demand, what do people actually want? What are they you know, what are they looking for? So I think that that causes all all kinds of problems when it comes to communication and content marketing and the core copy on your side. Yeah, I love a lot of things that you mentioned, especially because it does resonate with UM with mean the challenges that my team has. Um you mentioned the best way is to uncover what people want, what your customers want versus what you think that they want, especially coming in with the curse of knowledge, right and having earn perspective on the tools that we probably are product team. Our engineering team has invested maybe the most time and resources building especially if they're doing it without talking to customers, or they're doing it based off of their knowledge of what can make this tool better besides just standard like third party research or talking to customers. What are some creative ways that maybe you guys have used in your agency or you've seen people uncover what their customers want. Yeah, and so research basically that's the simple answer, right, and to kind of expand on that. We like to gather insights in a number of ways. I think there's we can different differentiate between explicit data collection, which is when you actually get involvement from humans, from people your target audience, and then implicit data collection, which is where you don't have involvement, but you can scan the web for insight. So we tend to do in the beat again in the B two B world, it might sound quite simple and old school, but bio interviews, right, talk to people, interview them. So when we're working with our clients and interviewing their customers and clients, we tried to get you know, again maybe like eight to ten interviews at minimum three let's say it's a startup and talk to those prospects. Ideally, it's not just customers who are working with them. Ideally, it's a mix of both customers that they managed to convert and also prospects that were in the pipeline that actually said no right at the end, because if we could understand...

...get inside the head and the journey of those prospects that they didn't manage to convert, you know, they had such a big perceived barriers that they decided not to become in war. So if you can understand those barriers, it means we can prehenist them in our copy and in our content in our marketing. So we use a methodology for our buyer interviews based on if you know, a Dell revella from the Buyo Persona Institute. So we kind of borrowed that framework, which is you're basically trying to dig into five areas. So the five areas of buyer insight we call them. So what are the pains and triggers? That's kind of one so pain points? What are the success factors? So what are they looking for? Was the end goal the end desire? How do they describe that? What do they perceived barriers? Like I said, really important. Even though even if it's customers that in the ends came on board, they bought the software, they brought the service, the product, they definitely the most people would have had some barriers, right, some received barriers and objections at some point during that journey. If we can understand what those are, then we can handle them. As I said, number four is comparison factors. So what three to five things that they do did they used to compare you with competitors. And number five is kind of the buyer's journey, so who and what did they truck did they trust during that journey. So we do these interviews where we uncover all of all of those insights, go into a lot of depth, and what we do another cool thing. I think it's pretty cool. We highlight what we call voice of customer data as well. So we organize the transcripts of those interviews according to the five areas of buying site, and then we highlight words and phrases that come up which are either very common, like you know a few different people have been saying describing that pain point in that way, because then you think, oh, well, if they're using that language, we should use that language to persuade him. Or sometimes someone's has just said something so beautifully that as a copyright you don't want to touch it. Right, You're like, Wow, that's it, that's our headline, that's our landing page header. Right, that was just said in such a real, authentic, honest rule way that that's going to convert. And again you're much if you weave this voice of customer language and data into your copy and content, you're much more lucky to convert because it's come from the mouths of the very people that we're targeting. So that was a deep dive into one method. But we also do kind of surveys. Again, for surveys, let's says breadths rather than depth. But surveys you can be quite clever with all kinds of different types of questions. You know, some are kind of open ended, some gap feels where you get specific words, and focus groups are another way. And then there's as I said, implicit data collecture, so things like keywork research, you know, social media kind of scanning tools and things like that. But for us, more of what we do is kind of deep dive into tool principal juicy deep those deep insights. Yeah, it's um almost everything that you mentioned, we've even thought about it in our company to try to execute I'll say, the one thing that we did start doing, which again I wasn't met with a challenge. I'm sure you've heard the tool Winter. Yes, yeah, yeah, we used Winter because we also understand that Hey again, sas company, we've got challenged. We want to figure out what our customers think and how our customers are, you know, perceived a lot of our website copy, how to perceive our product, and so we used to survey to all the survey tool on winter and we had all of this mostly the A lot of it UM is tons of information, but kind of surface level enough for I think if we had actually done like a deep dive in and done customer interviews, it would have been enough to insform that and then we would have probably had a much understanding. We had spent a lot of time on editing our copy on our website, our product positioning,...

...our value prop and we're feeling really confident about it, right, and then it's like we did the surveys and again another challenge that I'm sure you've also realized with SAS companies is you don't have a single type of like you have multiple products and a lot of times those products service different roles and buyers. For US brings now, but we got marketers and we we also service I T and UM sales is also part of it. So we've got three main personas and our compliance is another one of them. And how do we like our homepage for example, how do we not stuff all of our different value props and try to UM share the most important parts to all four of these different personas and just have like a blanket statement that makes sense. And I'm sure you've read the Building a Brand story, you know, the very beginning they basically they talked about this painting company and uh, I don't remember the exact name of the painting company, but the guy I went in there and he said, hey, you've got all like nobody cares just say we paid ship and the founder was like, I don't want to do that. I want to talk about all this specific like we like, our commercial painting needs are different from this. And then me, he's like, no, nobody cares. Right, people in there, Um, it requires a lot of energy to think and I and I always think to that when I'm like, okay, what are we supposed to do? How do how do ask brands share their value to different buyers and stuff, especially when you only have a few seconds to capture someone's attention? Have you noticed anything like that? And like, what I think is raising a really good point. And we when we're writing Landing Page Company, for example, we practice this thing called the rule of one because yeah, naturally you want to be inclusive of everyone, right, And it's kind of what we don't want to exclude this audience, So this audience of that audience, you know, let's write something for everyone. But the reality is that usually if you tried to do that, you try to be everything for everyone, you're kind of nothing for no one, right because it's just everyone that then lands on that landing page. You know, if you say we're something platform for you know, marketers and janitors and you know and single fathers and whatever and just like a whole and it's like you're not speaking to anyone, everyone will be turned off by that because they will go, well, that's not for me. I want something that's truly tailored to me, because I'm I'm selfish, and I want you to solve my pain points. So you can risk creating that kind of scatter gun copy, as we could call it, like firing everyone when we and I'll talk about homepage in the second because it's that there's a different challenges there. But if you're creating a landing page and you've got tailored traffic going towards it from somewhere wherever it's organy for paid traffic, what we say is that really you should be trying to identify who is the one target group. How please segment that one target group that is your best biotype, right, Who's the one who's most likely to convert, Who's the one that's going to spend money with you most money and you know, have the largest sort of customer lifetime value. He's the one that's going to be sharing your content and referring and just adding most value to your business. And then right for them, right right for them, and exclude the others because you're much more likely to get a higher conversion rate. And if you do all the maths in the end, at the end of the final you aren't likely to kind of make more money, which is what we're most of us are trying to do. So I'll give you an example for our and I didn't mention this that we also have an academy, so Copyrighting Academy, which we launched at the beginning of COVID. It was kind of a no brainer, Like I had it on on. It was on the cards for many years because we I won't go into My background is kind of SEO a copy writing so that outside in approach, as I mentioned, like finding demand making demand led decisions rather than just going hey, let's launch an academy. You know, we had traffic for many years for people looking for copyrighting forces and then COVID kind of litter fire. Under our us is to actually launch it because there was even hired in Marands...

...then because unfortunately people are losing their jobs, etcetera. So I wanted to up skill. And you know, we knew that people were looking for copyrighting courses, right, and we had a lot of traffic and we were building the course at the same time. I was we were kind of getting a pre subscription list, and what we did immediately was survey then, right, and we asked a bunch of questions and one of them was like, I want to be um copywriter, so what what's the word? And and and then we hadn't kind of dropped down, you know, do you want to be a freelance copywriter, do you want to be in house copywriter? Or are you a business owner looking to enhance your copy skills? And we found that I think she was about six wanted to be a freelance copywriter. And then because of that, it was like a lot you know, the majority of the traffic were people searching for that. So we actually built the products around that. So the course materials were not just how to be great copyrights. There were modules on the art and science of copyrighting, but then modules on how to launch a freelance business, how do you lockdown and win business? You know, how where to what kind of platforms do you is to get your first freelancing gigs. So that this demand lad approach, just outside the approach not only kind of affected that the products biled, but obviously naturally the marketing letter as well. So our landing page is focused all around you know, what people wanting to be freelance copywriter. And and because of that, you know, because of the survey results everything, it lifted our conversion rates. And yeah, I very much believe in that kind of outside in approach and and the rule of one what I will talk about. Obviously, it becomes difficult when it's the homepage, right because bome page has to do a lot naturally for everyone. And if you are if you do have a product with different kind of features or whatever or is kind of you know, different functions to different audience says, it does become quite tough. But you can still segments. You know, for us, we're a creative copyrighting agency for brands with brains. That's not industry specific. We can't really go down a niche because people search for creative copyrights and and they found us. There's that SCO value. But what we currently doing is building a landing page for sas. So you know, I think you can do that. You can build different parts of your site for those different audiences, and all the homepage you can potentially direct, you know, immediately direct your visitors to those different sections of the site. I think that's quite a smart food. But you still have to sort of come up with a value proposition for everyone and really identify what makes you different, what makes you you need can what are your brand values? That might be a little bit cattule on that page. And so he's tough, he is tough. I don't think there's one right answer. And I'm sure you've seen, like you've seen different approaches, and I guess testing right, testing is like the right The right thing to do is you don't know, which is obviously like what we're doing what I've seen a lot of big brands start doing. But that's interesting, before you had mentioned a lot of them. What you guys do is full funnel content, full funnel copyrighting. And even the example that you shared about first understanding what kind of people want to take your course and then you you identified freelance copywriters, is you know, six of your audience wants that, and instead of just offering like going straight into copyrighting, you guys are offering resources to start a business, how to manage clients and this and that. I see that as not only you know, you guys were able to differentiate yourself, but you're now becoming that hub um where any freelancer who eventually wants to get to that point will come and see you guys as kind of the thought leaders and help them gain the skills that they need from start to finish. Fun love that and I love you mentioned that too. And it's way less competitive about that point as well, because we've kind of niche in a way, right,...

Like we've unders stood what that what are one audience is? Right? Like what that mainly one audience is the audience that we have, you know, traffic to our site for that are going to spend money. And then now we're not just competing with all the copyrighting courses out there, of which there are many we are we've differentiated is a freelance copywriting course where we teach the art, science, and business of becoming a freelance copyright. So yeah, it's less competitive. It's made us, you know, more of a niche kind of thought leader in their areas. And and yeah, as you said, like the conversion rates are a lot higher in the landing page when when you do that. So we loved everything that you shared. And to take a step back, especially you guys have spent a lot of time now you built an academy for copywriters. Obviously this is your guys niche right, creative copywrighting. What do you think, especially for freelancers people who are starting out, what are the most important skills and maybe the top two or three most important skills and then what is maybe the most underrated still that you've noticed as to become a copyright I mean, this is going to be a pretty obvious one, but you need to if you need to be able to write, the start to spin a yard, you know, and like have away with words. The strange. I don't know if it's strange or not, but there the interesting thing about copyrights thing is that you know you can be a seasoned pro and have twenty years under your belt and learn all of the science and and everything and the techniques and be like and be pretty good. But then you can have just these kind of rand new people arrive on the scene. They're just un naturally gifted with writing, who learned those techniques, who can just be better, right, And and so that I think that's something that is quite cool about copyrights. And again that we because we now with the Academy, we're seeing a lot of these newbies start their journey, and especially coming from other you know what of life or other industries. Charlie, one of our in house copy rights as, came from the theater background. He was a director of war Worce in the West End in London and you know obviously the beginning of COVID that got hit and he was just a great writer and we immediately saw that talent. And you can kind of learn the techniques fairly quickly. So obviously that's probably the obvious answer writing talent, right, you need to be a good rights But I think that at the same time there were good rights as who just don't get it when it comes to copyrighting. And I think more than being a great writer. You need to understand people, like that's basically what we do as copyrights as we need to know what makes people tier After you have to be a people person in a way like it's it's it's psychology. You have to kind of persuade, charm, nurture, convinced, and and so I think that understanding people and in a sense also being a bit of a chameleon in that way. You know how some people I guess again when it comes to this is what I kind of have to do for my agency is to be basically glorified salesperson. I have to talk to people from different industries, like you know, completely different business models and industries and just be interested in it, intrigued by it, which I am naturally, and and quickly learn about that industry and about the goals about their target audience. So you have to be a good good at research and good at kind of learning all these different things, like you know, from from data science through to make up through to kind of depending you know you might be a tech writer or not, and to quick to adapt, to quick to be a kind of chameleon. And when I say a chameleon, the same goes for your tone of voice as well, right, because you you might be writing added ass and then you might be writing Thompson Reuters for exam with one of our clients and the legal sector. So I think there's a few few spirit porting and so a good writer, for one,...

...understand people what makes them to it, be a comedian and able to adapt and learn quickly. And I're throwing another one there just for luck. I think you need to be quite self aware and good, good with feedback. So how do I say, like, not be a diva. I'm trying to find the best. It's just say, don't throw your toys out the brand. When you get some feet, you will naturally will naturally happen. And I've seen lots of freelancers throw their toys out of the brand and we kind of have to have had to stop working with they just don't take feedback well. And the annoying thing is like the client is always right, and I often know that the client is not right right in reality, but we are providing a service and they're paying for that service. So that means pushing to you know, try and push them towards best practices and what you believe will get the highest engage, conversion rate, etcetera. But often markups and the people we work we have a theme or tend to say about copyrighting and what words were wealth, etcetera, and how the tone of voice should be, and many cases you just have to go, Okay, that's fine, that's what you want. And it might not be the kind of thing you're gonna slash, you know, over your portfolio. It might not win the wards, but you're providing your service to the client. They're happy, they're paying you, and you just kind of have to stuff get up sometimes. Yeah, I'm sure you know that obviously is painful when that does happened, but it's true, like you have to have to deal with that. One of the other things that when when you're talking about copyrighting, I started thinking about even some good copy that I've seen, And we also talked about sass brands, B two B brands, and how we've got all these buzzwords that the trend now is hey, let's let's just strip all the buzzwords. Let's talk like the human. Let's right, like you talk right. I'd say, like ten fifteen years ago, nobody cared only it was all the whole. How do I show my expertise? Only way to do it is to say, for a sas for example, is to use the jargon, the industry jargon to position yourself as an expert. But now we realized, okay, this isn't working. Let's focus on something else. What is something in the copyrighting world or in your world that you've noticed that is a little bit overdone now and it's kind of on its way out. And I'll give an example. I am subscribe to tons of newsletters, and it I've what I've been seeing over and over and over again, which I feel was natural a few years ago. Now it's like, man, this is so overdone. It's this idea of really trying to include as much personal stories to the point where almost like on it, it starts feeling a little cringe e and a little cheesy. And even like when someone's addressing um, you and a newsletter, those they always come up with like a different I always remember, like the high name, right, but it's always some something goofy or dorky to the point like, man, I see everyone's doing this, everyone's sharing very personal stories that are funny. But it just that for me, is an example of something that I'm just I see it all the time now, but I'm curious for you, what is something that now people have overdone that you think is it like on its way out? Yeah? Good, great question. I'm going to first jump onto what you were saying before about the conversational copy has had something to say there, which which may be interesting. The cool thing about copyright, and so we like to call that real talk conversational copy. We've actually got this framework called the thirteen lenses, and one of the lenses is called the real talk lens. We can talk about the lenses or not. I want to answer your question. The thing about a copany is that as much as maybe people are cluttoning onto kind of conversational company now in the digital world. If you look at newspaper ads from a hundred years ago, the best ads that did really well were written in conversational copy, and you read them now, they're still beautifully written, you still engaged,...

...and there's chopping copy. Those techniques, most of the techniques still apply now the digital world. They kind of got lost a long way. It's really interesting to see. And that's why, you know, as copyright as we kind of study the old greats like Ogilvy and those ads, because the thing is, in a hundred years, human psychology has not really changed, right, We've not involved, our brains haven't involved. So the same things work with with social creatures, right. So you know, if you write in a conversational tone and someone sitting and they're reading, it feels like they're having a one and one conversation, they're more likely to be engaged than if you're talking at them. So that was just a little point to speaking to the conversational copy scene. Now about to a question before I go into this retangents. I think LinkedIn is is an interesting place to look at kind of trends that come and go because it's like its own little world where every everything kind of goes so quickly. Like you know, things become a certain technique becomes saturated really quickly because you oversee it because we spend so long, so so much in there in linked In and other social platforms. But on the professional side of things, and I think that to your point right now there, Yeah, those like oversharing in terms of personal stories, which it does well, and leaked in like in terms of ridge because humans are voyers. So we kind of we see something and one of our lensers for the primal brain lens and for me, the way to get attention and reach and numbers and leaked in his first by tapping into the primal part of our brains. Meaning what our primal brain kind of likes is controversy, contrast, voyeurism, just these simple things, right, oh contrasts Well, okay, I'm going to stop for a second. That increases the dwell time. I'm going to press live just because I'm not rationally thinking about things yet, because that part of the brain takes a bit longer to a mark. And you know, I agree. I think personal stories they're still around and linked in, but you know, people just growing immune to them, and it's kind of there's that oversharing of like, you know, this is what happened to me, like really controversial, that share your deepest, darkest challenge happened in your life, and it's just for vanity metrics and that I think that's something that is is going through these waves of techniques, you know, in linked in in terms of like copyrighting in general, something I'd say that when I was learning copyrighting way back when there are certain words that we call copyrighting power words like discover and new and now and just I think that they've perhaps been used too much, and again you grow this kind of immunity to that kind of language. And then if you just try and weave them in, thinking, oh, you know, if I kind of say the word today and now a lot, or like what we class as a power word, like discoverment, it just you slight sales copy, right, it feels like you're being sold to. And so I think when it comes to copy eying and marketing in general, balance is super, super important. And when I talk about our thirteen different lenses, I always say they're kind of like ingredients in the secret sorts is copy that works, and much like cooking up the sauce, you want it to be salty but not too salty, sweet but not too sweet, etcetera. So with any one of them, you need to balance them. And one of our lenses is called the action lens, and that's all about conversion, right, And you want to weave in some of this sales psychology, but you don't want it to look or sound like, you know, a long form nineties landing page where it was just you know, these days people have immunity to it because they smell sales, right, so it doesn't work. But again I think that being real, authentic, engaging in conversational that kind of stuff. I imagine we'll will will last and the test of time because with humans and it just works. And it's just yeah,...

...when you kind of push the action lens of that conversion button a bit too hard, it can quite easily cause an adverse reaction, which is why, like you know, the best advertising doesn't look like advertizing. Yes, um, one of the things that you mentioned, especially advertising and classical advertising strategies, I remember one I wrote about it a while, like a very long time ago, feels like a long it was probably last year. Feels like Martin Salt Company, right back when they had started there, you know, just the salt that just you know, it comes out instead of like the salt shakers. They came up with one of the copy for their new salt that just comes straight out. It was when it rains, it pours, and they still use it to this day. The beauty about that is not only does it sounds great and it's memorable and you think about it and you can actually visualize them the more than salt just pouring, you know, instead of having to shape shape shaker all the time. That was something where god, I don't even know when they came up with that, but it was in newspapers, black and white, and to this day they still have that and that is something that it has aged so gracefully. And I think Porsche came up with something similar. And it's just you're you're moving beyond the words, and you're not not trying to be smart, You're not trying to be creative, right, but it's you're taking a look at your product and you're trying to figure out, how can I just convey this product in the best way possible to anybody who is using our our products. For example, I loved it, Oh my god. And I'm going to bring back talk about the lenses again and the primal brain lens, which is one of my favorites. The primal brain is also visual, right, so and again just to explain the primal brain a bit more scientifically, but hopefully there's no neuroscientists listening because they'll be like, what's he talking about? Just in a simplistic way, We've got an old world where brain, which can be called the primal brain, and then there's like the neo cortex, like the new part, which is Othern's ration and reason and logic things like that, whereas the primal brain kind of governs instincts and emotions. Right. The thing about the primal brain is that, you know, it works a lot quicker. And as I said, so you know, if if a tiger's coming at me, I'm not going to stand there and be like, I'm gonna let me measure. You know how that the size of the toof and health shop is in way out that kind of frozen clans have been eating alive. I will just think ship and run immediately, without no time to rationalize things. So it works more quickly, and it kind of resonates. And we know that emotion resonates more. It's more memorable. And if you think of like a lizard, for example, what's going to get the attention of a lizard? Like contrasts you know, something visual allowed bang or a plot And even I said banging plot because you can use words that are almost like visual words and automatopea, you know, and sensory words just work quicker because they kind of trigger that emotion you think, like a bang I said bang or plot. It connects a lot quicker than if I said, you know, a loud noise or something like that. There's there's there's language you can use. I think the example you gave was just very visual, and that's why metaphors and analogies are great. And looping back to sas the world of sas. One way that we can move away from tired, boring jargon that just you your eyes glaze over is by using metaphors, you know, like turn that technology into something that's a simple visual metaphor where they go, okay, I understand it quickly, and also it's nice it makes me feel a good emotion. Then it will resonate and that I can remember it. I'll keep going if I may so. A campaign that you love so, one that I really really love that also lasted for many years is the Avis campaign, where this is...

...another very clever trip you can do in marketing and copyrighting, which is admitting weakness and turning it into strength. So it's very very common for companies like I think deliver Route in the UK. Now have I saw it on again? One of my links in posts I took a snapshot of an ad on the side of the bus saying we're the number one delivery app in the UK. And my question is, well, in what way that you do you have the most customers? Do you have the best feedback? You know, are you the fastest? If so, say those things and where's the evidence, because if you say we're number one, it's lost all meaning. Right, Oh, we're the best. Okay, why would I trust to you this? Everyone thinks they're the best, and everyone's going to say they're the best. You know, it's again, it's one of these old phrases that maybe seemed you know, powerful and intuitive to use, which has now lost all meaning. Whereas what Avis did years ago They're famous ad campaign was we're number two at rented cars. So they say, for example, we're number two rented class, so we try and order right and immediately it's like wow, that builds trust immediately. If you say we're number one, no trust, we're number two. Okay, that's well, that's real, that's authentic. It builds trust in one sentence and then it flips, it turns it into strength. You know, hurts have more customers. We're number two rented cars, so we try harder. And then they kind of expanded that in many different like ads, newspaper ads, build boards, and it lasted many years, and it's such a powerful thing to do. It's that that I absolutely love that because a few reasons. Even I'm thinking, if I was looking for a car rental service as a buyer or a customer, a I would not only trust trust them more than whoever claims to be number one. I would probably be researching and trying to figure out the prices of different multiple So if they're number two, I would automatically include them in my list, right, I would assume that maybe they're not as pricing, maybe they have better prices or whatever, better service. As cheeky and it's funny, I will share one lass example. Well, then we can move on to because I do like that we can keep talking about awesome examples. I'm sure you know this one because this happened. I'm sure if I just say, you're gonna be like, I know, we're just talking about KFC UK. They came up with I think I don't know how many locations they ran it of Chicken, and they had two ads go out. The first one like an apology and it was I think it worked a lot of people. A lot of people were really upset about it, and they went back to the drawing board and then they decided to print their KFC bucket, but they rearranged KFC to f C K whatever, so the and it showed a bucket with like crumbs and it said, um, yeah, f C K we a chicken company, like a chicken place that ran at a chicken not ideal. And then it was like it was scroll stopping. It's something I remember seeing that years ago and I'm like, man, that is bold because it could have gone very very wrong. But people found it hilarious and it's definitely I know for sure I want ton of awards. And again that's what I'm saying, like back there and you can made its way over here. People loved it. And that's another example of take a risk right, be bold, and if you have an idea which is like it might not hit, well just share it because there's a chance that it actually might end up working and go against what you think. Now now people are being a lot more real, but it's like, hey, it's unprofessional. I can't do that. Whenever boundaries that you think exist, get rid of them, um, and obviously take calculated risks. But I love that example, especially these traditional old school kind of conceptions of what professional mads right. Actually human realness works and authenticity and admitting weakness, like it just it works because they are the people you trust. Like, who do you want that the boozy cooky on number one...

...guy or person as a friend or do you want the sort of humble you know, elf aware one? And and that's a brand is kind of a brand identity is personification, you know, It's like everything we do, we tryed to in marketing, tried to make it human and when there are values and voiced and all these human equality. So yeah, I'm all for authenticity and being real and and and admitting weakness. Yeah, I love that, And I like love what you just mentioned. Brand identity is personification. This again, I feel like we can just keep going. I don't know what time it is for you, But before like I move into rapid fire, I'd love to understand from you before I move into like how do you get the attention of some of the big brands out there? But how has the transition from you know, not being in marketing to marketing and then starting as a freelance and now you're leaving a company. How has that been for you? Um? What do you think is like the biggest challenges that you face and what has been like the reason for your success? Do you want my story? And have we got time for my story? Or yeah, yeah, let's story. I'll try and condense it. Which is not my strong poet as you may have noticed, I'll tell you my story. I tried it quickly, So let's start a UNI. I went to study philosophy at UNI, which kind of teaches you a lot but nothing at the same time. You know, it kind of makes you think but doesn't point you with a very clear career trajectory. So we say then I went to straight off the UNI, I went to Australia to do a kind of work travel. I did some face the best sales there. Actually, that's where I learned some sales psychology. So I say say it was charity fundraising, but it was basically with a sales company. I needed to get subscriptions. I was one of those annoying people in the street. Um, but I learned quite a lot arout about the psychology and I found that really interesting, and then I did all kinds of like weird and wonderful jobs like fruit picking and going around the country seed and gray in shoveling, and essentially I met a girl called Nitzan who's now my wife and is now the managing director of our agency. And she was from Israel originally and she was traveling as well, and we kind of got together and we traveled, traveled around Australia for a year, and we're in Southeast Asia for six months on a shoes during budget, like an actual shoes during budget, just trying to kind of extend things. We didn't know what to do, like let's just keep the relationship going. And it ended up in Israel without a work visa, so I was in her parents house, she was working. I had to kind of apply for a work for it too for a while, and that's when I started study. I discovered what copyrighting was, and s CEO landed together, and the combination was it was very powerful because, as I said, there's that outside in approach to building a business. The reason why we're called the Creative Copyright, which is ironically not the most creative name, is because there was demand for creative copyrighting right, and I kind of understood that I created a blow started writing about creative copy writing. At that time, I was also I'm also kind of an artist on the side, so I had like another blog and website called pop Up Paintings, and I was doing so I was doing kind of many different things at the same time, and the thing that stuck was, you know, the creative copyrights there, and ended up basically building that into an agency without even really knowing what an agency was. So my story is quite interesting because a lot of agencies come from people, you know, creatives who leave an agency and go, let's set up our own one, whereas mine came from this like demand led SEO background, doing some copy writing and then trying to figure things out along the way. So, you know, my portfolio was okay as a freelancer, and then I thought, because I was, I guess I've always been entrepreneurial, and they liked that side more. I thought, you know what, why don't I reach out to other freelance copy writers who have worked for big brands, et cetera, and then we'll pull all our portolios to ever and will be a collective,...

...which is almost an agency, and I didn't even really know what an agency was at that time. And it kind of developed from there because you know, I knew how to get the traffic and then you know, pull these freelancers together and it was the beginnings of an agency. And then essentially I've hired my best friend Ella to kind of do everything. She's now a head copyright so but back then, like we were wearing many hats, definitely too many hats. Like I was getting to cold cool companies to try and lockdown business. You kind of do everything at the beginning, like you graft, right, You just graft, and you're you don't always play to your strength because you have to. You know, you've got your strengths. And then there are things that I'm not naturally good at, like you know, let's say chasing invoices and project management. It doesn't doesn't come naturally to me. I'm more of the creative, visionary kind of sales person. And then basically in two thousand and seventeen, that's when N's and my wife joined. She was kind of disillusioned with the n G O old and she was covering for one of our employees. Then I said, look, we could do with your amazing project. Man, you know your organizational skills. So I brought her in. She's got a very different brain to me. She's kind of a Yin yang thing going on. She is an organizing you know. In that first week he was chaos. She was like, why is it so chaotic? And I just you know, and I said, that's just agency life, babe. But the reality is that wasn't just agency life. You need an organizer, right. We were putting fires out rather than pre empting them. And that's really when our growth really started in two thousand and seventeen. The reason I'm telling you this entire story, I guess is I think that a huge milestone was obviously bringing Nitsanian and also having awareness. At that point, I think that's when I properly became aware of my weaknesses. And I think that's hugely important as an entrepreneur. I think that you need to know where your strengths are and when where your weaknesses are. And to be honest, I think most entrepreneurs us are more of a me type character. You know, generally, they're more of the visionary if you know the E O S system, and they're more of a visionary and they need an integrated so right, and I need successful companies. You have both at the helm and in the leadership team. You have someone who's like goal with the ideas, future thinking, you know, the branding, sales kind of you know person. But then you need the person that cantion those ideas, the person that goes right. They know how to prioritize, they know how to like, they understand how I management and understand what's important what's not. An integrate and the reason why we're doing we're successful and the reason why we've kind of been growing on average for evencent every year since then is because I think having those left left side on the right side of the brain and that push and pull that's really needed. And my partner it's and she always said that she wouldn't have kind of launched the business right, so you needed me, But we wouldn't have got to where we are without having having and her. Not everyone will naturally be able to work for their other hobs and we'll have someone that we want to join. But if you are a nonprene type like may you know, and you want to grow, you need to have that integrates here as well. Yeah, no, I love that, and I love that you were able to find that you know in your partner. I'm sure that you like even from like a personal standpoint, you guys are probably always talking work, but I'm sure it's made you guys communicate better and be a lot closer to So that's awesome. And you didn't answer my question, which I you know, I asked what are the challenges and how how did you guys become successful? So I love that. Let that story. Thank you for sharing. Can I move into rapid fire and then I'll let you go. I don't know I'm doing after me, be sleeping or we're talking about exactly. So let's let's move into rapid fire. What is your favorite and so what I guess I'll change it in the context of copyrighting, what's a B two B brand that's killing it from your standpoint and then a BBC brand that's killing it? Can I say us as the beta B brad creative right...

...and allowed to be ballsy just when I was talking about being authentic and a bitting weakly, I'm going to be cocky. You go. I think we're in a good job because we bring that kind of creativity into the B two B world, which is often missing. So I'm going to be really ballsy and say us B two C brand. One that jumps to mind is Innocence. You know, they do amazingly from a copyright perspective and thankful. So if you have the time and fancy it, you can go back and look at their Instagram feed during COVID and see how they very quickly adapted to the COVID situation while other brands were just pushing out the same, the same coms, the same ads are getting backlash, like really bad backlash. They immediately adapted. And I say, also, just it wasn't completely product focused. It's so comminent for BBC brands just to talk about their products, and Innocent are just you know, essentially that smoothies, it makes movies, right. But but they would creating all these like funny and they've got great funny tone of voice, like quite famous for in the copyrighting world every touch point from Instagram through to the box in itself. But you know they're putting kind of putting posts out such as twenty things to do well in lockdown over Easter, and some would be funny and some would actually be valuable. So for me, that's content marketing and doing in a really smart way. So innocent, Yeah, I love innocent. Um well it's not big here, but I had done like research when I was a student about innocent movies and they were killing it ten years ago when I was doing my research books. Best way for you to wind down for me personally music and art. So I've got these other passions that I want to pursue a little bit more as well in the future. So yeah, I am trying to make shoes and very occasionally I get back into art when I have time. But also meditation, Like I've got really into meditation since the beginning of COVID. You know, it was very difficult being in London in a four month lockdown in January and it affected my mental health. And then I kind of sided meditating and like I just didn't know beforehand, like how transformative it can be to just meditate even five minutes every day. So that helps me wind out. Yeah, I like that. I like that. One favorite drink alcoholic nun whatever words I mean, I like beer. That sounds like a very British thing to say. I don't know if I should be picking a particular brand. I'm going to say beer has my favorite drinks. Okay, um, favorite word, favorite words. I'll give you our like one sort of top TCC words. I'm going to relate it back to our business, and that's that's charm because it kind of if you were to describe the great copywriter in one word, that's it, and that's like our main kind of essence. So it has a lot of meaning from me because it's not like the essence of black brand. No. I like that. I like that a lot. I like charm. Favorite. A character can be fictional, could be a movie, could be a book. You can you give me? You're making me think, where can we think? I also find it difficult to I'm to put superlatives. One thing I'm notoriously difficult to the I don't swer these questions because if I say that, then that's forevery I mean, I'm gonna just say Peter Griffin from Family Diet. Why not? Yeah? I love that. What's a pet peeve you have? It's loffy marketing and also loud eating loud eating minds is um. If someone can't hear me more than if I have to repeat myself twice, I when I say someone to choose my mom and if I have to repeat myself for two times, I'm like, just you know, just leave, I don't just run? Ye what ice cream flavor? Are you? Just like that? I don't even know the show Blind...

Date we used to have a Hey, it's like what I've just been flavor you and why you've given me tough ones? Right? It's very late here as well? Just pick the bees. I would say raspberry ripple because like, you know, I don't know why, but you'll bit edgy creative. That's there's that swell. Yeah, I like that. I like that one. Alart Um. If you could pick one superpower, what would you choose, like a mutant superpower? Well, I've had this conversation many a time, so I would say, quite recently flying. It might sound obvious, but that a lot of the other ones are a bit freepy, you know, like read people's minds. That would be horrible. I wouldn't want to read or go invisible. Well, I wouldally want to do that, so you know, flying just go out of the side. Amazing. Yeah, I appreciate that is don't creepy at all. So I do appreciate what one book you'd recommend to our audience and why Yeah, okay, I'm going to retrimmend like a famous marketing book which is influenced by Robert Stardini because again, like what my one of my favorite things in marketing is looking at the psychology behind it, the psychology of influence and persuasion. And Robert Chadd is a psychologist that really digs into these like six main principles that we should all know as marketers, and it lends itself to copyrighting and everything we do in marketing. Yeah, oh that one, that's a classic. Finally, last question, who should we invite on the show? Who someone there you could think is someone that we could learn from I'm gonna do. I'm going to say my cow Marcus Hemsley, who runs the Fountain Partnership or he also him. It's actually two couples to run it, and we've got to be of an agency crush on them. They won the Google International Awards for Growing Businesses Online two years in a row, so arguably the PPC agency in the world. And he's a really really smart guy who has some interesting stuff to say. Okay, awesome, Well that's it, and we ended up having a nice long conversation. I said, like I say, it was awesome. And one of the questions, which I didn't include because I know for sure it was one, are you most productive? And you explain to me that you're a night owl. So I guess the challenging question was a lot of these eclectic questions were probably better suited for you in the daytime or in the afternoon. I'm guessing, yeah, you know what, I say, am annoy our, but I'm definitely not productive in the evening. Yeah, I I am a night our internms that, but I like to stay up and do other things, right, I want to make the most of the day, And I just got used to that. But I realized only until very recently, like my other half had to put a rule in place and say that's it at like seven pm, because I used to just go, oh, I've got a couple few things that I'll do them in the evening. But that's when I I've also got a d h D, so that's when my a d h D brain gets a little bit looser, and so I just start doing the things I'm not meant to be doing, and it can turned into four hours and so I'm much better during the day during structure, when I have meeting structured and like under pressure when I need to get something done before the next meeting, etcetera. When it's just open ended, I can really use all about open ended time, and it's just I'm not very efficient. Yeah, okay, well eight now I now I know. Maybe I'll wake up earlier when we do this again. Away, you can have the podcast interview had an appropriate time for you. But honestly, UM, it was awesome to have you here. I think we've got tons of great, great insight that you share. I know for sure I'm walking away with a lot more information than UM then I was even planning on getting so much going. It was a pleasure to have you. Yeah, it was awesome. Thanks so much. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for listening to Growth Marketing...

Camp. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you would give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to strengthen their skills with tips and inspiration. You want to learn more about the company behind the show, head to open sense dot com. That's O p E N s E N s E dot com We'll catch you on the next episode.

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