Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 57 · 6 months ago

The Performance vs. Brand Advertising Battle with David Rodnitzky


After graduating from law school in 1999, the one thing that David Rodnitzky knew for sure was that he didn’t want to be a lawyer. So he packed up his bags and moved to San Francisco, searching for his next great opportunity.

After landing a job in tech, he volunteered to dive into the advertising world. After trial, error and many lessons learned, David set up his first consulting agency at a coffee shop that eventually turned into the well-known 3Q Digital growth marketing agency.

David joins us on Growth Marketing Camp to share insights on the go-to-market evolution of advertising giants, like Google and Facebook, plus his thoughts on AI vs. Humans in modern marketing. He also talks about the importance of relevance and creativity, why advertising has to be part of the experience rather than a distraction, and how to develop and nurture great company culture. If you want to learn how to be successful from an industry veteran, you’re at the right place!

Welcome to growth marketing camp, or we sit down with our favorite marketers to do mystify growth and give you the insights to help turn your next campaign into a major success. Let's get into it. Good afternoon, Ladies and gentlemen. This is bobby and nurraying. I am cohost here at growth marketing camp. I'm incredibly excited today to be joined by David Rednitzky. He is founder of three q digital. David, welcome to the show. Thanks, Bobby. Great to be here. Thank you for having me. Absolutely obviously great opportunity for for myself and for our audience have a chance to speak with someone like a q industry veteran and you've been at it for four decades. Before we get into it, do you mind just taken a moment and letting our audience know a little bit about three q digital, just services, the value that they're providing in the space, and maybe just a little bit about your story with three Q, just to a high level. Yeah, so three key digital, at a high level, is a foreman's marketing or growth marketing agency. So we are helping clients who are looking to drive revenue, profit pripe through online marketing so the services that we provide start with media buying, like Google advertising, facebook advertising, Tick Tock, Youtube, Ott, you know, mobile, etc. And then we have a whole suite of services that are ancillary but very important, creative strategy, analytics, search engine optimization, etc. So essentially, a company that is really looking the hyper and hyper growth in online marketing would come to us and they would use anywhere from one to all of those services. And then, in terms of my how I got started in as business. Yeah, I came out to San Francisco in one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine, after that law school and knowing I didn't want to be a lawyer. Okay, and I worked at a bunch of startups. I was very lucky because I was there during the first bubble, or other first bubball burst I should say, Hey, and companies were kind of hiring warm bodies. Probably not that dissimilar spore we are today. Sure, there's just a shortage of people and there there's so many startups, and so I got hired by company that just needed someone to do they called it strategy. They really mean anything. And eventually the head of marketing quit and there was no one to do marketing and we had this massive budget to spend on advertising. So I just volunteered. Made a lot of mistakes, but I learned enough to get another job and then another job and eventually, in two thousand and seven I was working for a company, and ECOMMERCE company. That was really a fit, and partly because I was traveling the India once this quarter and my wife was pregnant and you don't want to be an India when your wife is delivering a baby. That we're doing that sure, Indian and Indian? Yeah, obviously. So I put that job and you know, I just kind of set up shop at I thought shop,...

...not knowing what was going to happen, and a lot of people just called me about help with their online advertising. Yeah, what started as a consultancy eventually became the agency that is q digital. That it's amazing. I want to ask you a little bit about ad buying. You know, in my in my very cursory experience with Google ads, which is mostly secondhand knowledge it, and just in having spoken with people in the industry, it seems like ads buying ads almost like buying and selling stocks. To some extent. There's there's like literally like an exchange and that's as deep as I'll go into that. But let me ask you something. When you when you took that budget in in ninety nine that you had to go spend, can you tell me a little bit about what the experience was back then compared to what it's like now? I'm just wondering if that's that that experience is evolved or if it's been fundamentally similar, you know, for the last, you know, twenty plus years. No, it was very different. Okay, back when I took over that eight, that budget, they were spending twenty fivezero hours a month on a PR agency and twenty fivezero hours a month on a brand agency. There's no concept of direct response performance marketing because basically it didn't exist. And so actually what happened was, yeah, I remember sitting in a pitch meeting where the brand agency came in. They had a guy dressed a superman and there this was a rent rental partner, rental company, there rentals man and yeah, yeah, this is cool but, like you know, it's how do we know this is going to work and how much money to get spent on branding to make it work? And so then I was just kind of a little bit flummox and I then found this little company called go tocom and it and I went to the side. It was like you could buy the word apartment rental for one sent to click. And I was thinking like all right, so I could either spend fiftyzero hours a month or more, probably much more, on this unclear crazy guy in a suit, superman suit, or I could get tenzero clicks to day. Yeah, we're a hundred bucks and no sense. And so I was like I'm signing up for for this thing and there was no competition. And in fact, just to tell you how crazy it was back then, when Google called me eventually and said Hey, we're doing the same thing, when Google first started their their Google adwords, it was actually on a negotiated contract on a quarterly basis. Yep, you go to them and say I want the word apartment rental, like all right, what position do you want it? I wanted a second position. All right, they'll be fifteen cents and you get it for three months. Now, of course it's an auction and it's very nemic, but back then it was like you were you were signing an invoice. So so early days, I mean there was nothing like what we have today in terms of this sort of turnkey environment on Google and facebook and all these places where you can literally put your credit card in and within minutes you see ads. Sure, hey, yeah, it's interesting that you describe it as as the auction, and I think that's probably the word that I was looking for. But it's interesting to think about that that sort of go to market evolution for these companies that have become some of the most important and potentially profitable businesses on the planet. I so it's kind of interesting to hear and you're perspective on that.

One of the things I will say that I think that Google and facebook and all these companies don't get enough credit for the revolution that they may an advertising and that's not really the auction. I mean the auction is really cool, but the more cool part to me is that when you buy it add on a google or facebook, the determination of how whether you show up is based on really two factors. One is the mount here way to pay for the for the Click Obote, but the second is the click through rate, and the click through rate is really a sign that the audience found it interesting, yes, and relevancy, and if you think about at all advertising prior to Google and Facebook, if you wanted to buy an add on in the Super Bowl, and still to this day, if you're like look, I've got a you know, I've got this car that I'm launching it. It's made out of clay and hand Peru and and I, you know, keep and no one's going to be interested in it. But I want to spend ten million dollars on a super bowl Adad, they'll take your money. They don't care if it's relevant or not. But so what really have? What performance marketing, though, was, is the first time in history, the only time in history, where advertising had to be part of the experience rather than a distraction from the experience. Absolutely, absolutely. And I think the other part of that that kind of figgurebacks on what you're describing with rentals, man. Yeah, that you have that immediate feedback loop of impact. You have that immediate feed feedback loop of Roi, you know, and I think that's a really you know, we're in in the MARTECH space and and Roy is always going to be a question that arises and it's interesting because you know, on one hand there is to value to the brand. In fact, I was talking to the head of demand Jin at proof point, I believe, not too long ago as a demandgin meet up, and they spent about thirty or forty five minutes talking about, you know, like analyzing what you're paying to get leads in the top of the funnel, the value on the like down the funnel and basically understanding the cost of your leads, and it was just really thorough conversation. At the end of it somebody raised their hand and Assimila, like that's all well and good, but can you explain why you have a billboard one hundred and one and and I think it's interesting because it's there's definitely an interplay there and on one hand you get that immediate feedback of our wine, on the other it's sort of like you need the brand in order to do to make the other stuff work. I sometimes use the financial analogy and I say that buying performance advertising is bike like buying a municipal bond in the scent head. It's pretty predictable, but their turn is never going to be en X. I mean it's a very efficient market now. It's very competitive. Absolutely you know your competitors are all going to be buying absolutely yead. So it's efficient, but it's predictable and it gives you a turn. Buying brand advertising is more like buying a stack option. So, Hey, there maybe fifty agent companies that invest in branding and you know, ten of them may be absolutely miserable failures and lose everything. Yeah, and twenty five of them, three of them may do fine but not really know how fine they did, and then five or ten will have breakout success but much, much higher risk, but the potentially higher return as well. Really really smart analogy, and one of the things I really like about out analogies...

...that it does speak to you know, in this world preticting silk on valley, I feel like everything you know. You obviously need to be data driven in all decisions you're making, but it's refreshing to hear that, you know what, sometimes you can make a bet on a brand play and half it be like astronomically successful. That's okay too. One of the things that it's still condat that is actually a problem is that people are so dependent on metrics that they are unwilling to deviate from from from that. I sometimes describe this as the East Coast West Coast rap battle in the sense that, like in the what on the west coast, Silicon Valley startups, they start with with Google and facebook advertising and Episo and they and there we have to report to the CMO and the CEO and that, you know. I stud if I spend a dollar, I needed dollar fifteen return. Yep. And then after they've done that for a while and they can't see any further growth, they start investing in brand. Yes, and I'm the East Coast. If you talk about a traditional brand in New York City, Yep, at cosmetics company or something. They direct opposite. They got ran, they go traditional media and they hammer that until they can't squeeze any juice out of it. And then they were grudgingly get into the performance marketing that we all know so well. And it's silk in valley. That's such a, such a great point. It's like, if it works well for Lipstick, why won't it work well for email signatures? You know the light it does. I mean, yeah, I think that's such a such a like a really smart point and it's interesting. Small Anecdote. My wife is a furniture designer for William Sonoma and they are sort of the example there, which is they never had, I mean they've always had any commerce presence, but it was never a core tenet of their strategy. Brick and mortar was always the move and all of the advertising that comes along with that. But then obviously pandemic comes around and all of a sudden ECOMMERCE becomes like the biggest boon to their business they've ever seen. And so now you're getting that like, although I guess William Snowmas a West Coast Company, but you're getting that more west coast approach about optimizing the digital experience to increase conversion, so on and so forth. There's some really like, I think, great insights that have already come out of this. I love the East Coast West Coast approach and definitely something for me to chew on. But I want to bring this back a little bit to and you know, one of the themes in our shows sort of my dirty little secret is that I love getting advice and feedback from from guests I know will be valuable to the audience, but I secretly love getting advice for myself here and and and one of the things I thought would be fun to talk to you about a little bit is, you know, just the idea of agencies. You know, we're startup. We've been building this business in a very regimented fashion and you know we've traditionally done on a law marketing in house. We obviously sell into agencies and I'm a familiar with what agencies do, but can you tell me a little bit about when is it that businesses look to agencies? What's the inciting incidents, like, what is the questions that they don't have the answers to that makes them say, you know what, we should go find the answers of the agency. I'm just trying to understand and... like when I guess maybe this is a question of WHO's your ideal customer, but but also from the flip side, like when should customers or when should companies, start evaluating whether an agencies is the right strategic move for them? Yeah, I mean it's a multifaceted answer. I would yes, I mean the first question that I always ask people is, are you a product driven company or Marketing Driven Company? If just are a marketing driven company, so you're selling somewhat else, a commodity, you know, and and only way your successful is through marketing. And you probably should have your marketing team in house. You'd probably should have it's experts that you feel our world beaters, because if that's your entire business, raised on Detra, you know your trouble. If you're a product driven company, then it becomes more of an open question. And and the question really comes down to a couple things. I mean, I think the first question is trying to assess how good your internal team is. And unfortunately it's sort of like Plato's cave. You know, if you have a marketing team and you have no outside perspective on how good they are, you really don't know if you're in a plus or a C minus. So, but I'd usually tell people is the first thing you need to do is you needed to open to getting as much at transparency as you can and to your your marketing team. So that I mean something like hiring consultant or even hire an agency to you and audit and say hey's go through, rip us apart and tell us what's good and what's not good. And that's the first sort of first thing you can do to figure out, do I need some help here? Hey. I think the second thing to consider is an inhouse marketing team is always going to know a lot more about the business than an agency. So in house market teams going to know that February is when there's a big spike and interest and at certain product or that a competitor has decided to launch, you know, an upgrade that is going to that you need to have a you know, messaging against etc. That's all really important. An agency is going to know more about the channels. So agencies live and breathe whatever channels are managing. So if you talk about Google ad words, or Google ads, I guess it's called now, you know, a company like threeky digital has hundreds of people who every day are looking at five or ten different accounts on Google and they are earning faster and faster and faster, and it is simply not possible for an inhouse team to learn at the speed that an agency team does. So so you're sort of end you end up with either you want to have a blended approach where you have some experts on your team internally who can really speak to that the market and to your products, and then some experts on the channel side. As an agency I'm at, we do have some clients where they have a beer bones marketing team and hey, I'll starts all of the marketing to us, but that's usually pretty rare. I mean you, yeah, I'm a nation of the two. Yeah, that make that. That makes sense. Tempted to ask you a follow question about you know, you mentioned one of the things that you might do is is, you know, alluding to the allegory, the cave here. You know, if you wanted to shed some light and what's going on in the marketing team, bringing a consultancy, an agency... kind of tear it apart, where would you be looking? I mean, what would be the I don't know, the usual suspects in terms of what a what an inhouse team maybe isn't doing great or where there'd be opportunities for improvement, like what are the biggest levers that you would potentially identify and an assessment like that. I mean at a high level, it would be like things like, you know, here's evidence that a large part of your audience is on these channels and you're not aising okay, and you know, we looked at your landing pages or your your webs and here's five things that we would suggest testing. What we're grandular level. I mean there's little things like you could go into a google account and you can say, I mean we used to have a bunch of metrics. I think we maybe still use some of them, but we actually created some Quanto pable metrics. One of them is called the Lidradsky ratio, which you can look up, and it was basically like a determination of how many keywords were you buying that had zero conversions? Yeah, and that we're spending a certain amount of money. So right. Yeah, I've seen accounts where you go in and you say, okay, well, you spent Fiftyzero last month on twenty keywords that didn't get a single conversion for you. So, unless you're waiting for some magical moment that we're not seeing, if you just that out those fifty keywords, you're going to save yourself fiftyzero a month. Absolutely. So when you do, when you see it on it, sometimes it's very tactical and sometimes it's more strategic, like this is areas that you need to invest that you haven't even tested yet. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. I want to pivot a little bit in to digital ads in general, because I think one thing that I know or I've been able to observe from from my seat, is a dynamic environment. You know, I moved to the bay area about nine years ago and it feels like a different place, the whole different set of solutions that buildings with names of companies that maybe weren't around five or seven years ago. But I think you know, you you know speaking back to your experience in ninety nine, and they're after you've probably seen players come and go and some some that have remained but I'm sure have changed over time, and I'm wondering what you have sort of what are some of the big shifts, if any, that you've seen or observed with digital ads over the last twenty years? I'm wondering if there's multiple or if there is one big shift. Can you maybe just give us a lay of the land tier of what it was like, what is like now and perhaps what happened in between? I know that's kind of a big question but again, with your perspective, I'm sure there's some interesting insights there. Yeah, I mean you specifically speaking about the performance marketing spaces. The twenty years ago it was a very human powered process, a lots of spreadsheets, you know, late night sort of uploading tens of thousands of keywords or or testing hundreds and thousands of add texts, you know, just doing it by hand and by cheats. And that part of the business has changed dramatically and it primarily through artificial intelligence and machine...

...learning that the platforms themselves. Yes, you are facebook, I implemented so today, if you're launching a campaign, you know you're still buying keywords, but Google is suggesting a lot of those keywords and then Google is making inferences based on the artificial intelligence, about keywords that you never thought of that they like to serve your add on. Absolutely. So this is sort of a trend in general, which is that twenty years ago, or maybe even ten years ago, the success that you would see on promotes marketing was probably eighty percent human and twenty percent technology. Yeah, now it's probably almost flit where it's eight and technology and twenty percent humans. And and sometimes people say to me, will then why do I eat an agency if's only twenty percent? It's like, well, twenty percent, it's just the pretty big live. Yeah, yeah, got twenty percent right. That's a huge difference. But yeah, we get wrong. So that's one church trend. I think the other trend is that twenty years ago, you know, you were just buying text ads of just words. Creative has become a lot more important today, actually true on something like a facebook absolutely or youtube or tick tock or instagram. You knows, people talk about like the first half second of your video as being the most determinative thing about as that whether you're going to have positive at Roy. So you've seen an entire rise of the importance of creative and whether you're an agency like three q or some of these standalone agencies that only focus on creative. You know, we talked about brand versus performance or brand versus direct response. You know, Direct Response Marker have been dropped dragged a little bit into the brand space because you have to create videos that gets people's attention and solutely and even harder than TV, because TV, I mean traditionally you had thirty seconds to convince someone. You know, you've got the first half second on facebook and then after that you got five or six seconds more and if you haven't got their attention they're going to keep scrolling. So so I would say that has been a huge additional change that's really important today. My brain is sort of just thinking to the impact of technology on our on our own biology, that we're making these types of split second associations and decisions and under a second, and that's a probably another tangent conversation that we could have another day. That is that is I mean, I were I think people's attention spans get shorter and shorter by the year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, and not to date myself, but I mean I still do remember pre internet days. I remember pre cell phone days. I mean that was college for me, where it's just one of those things when you're riding on on Muni and you see everybody looking down on their phones, you just think about, well, what we do this looked like fifteen years ago or twenty years ago, for for the iphones came out, certainly not like this. A lot more books and newspapers, and just to think that was not that long ago and now it's just such a part of what we are as human being. It's just just really unbelievable. I appreciated your description of the human versus Ai Machine learning component for digital ad buying.

I'm familiar, I have some vague familiarity with return on ads bend as sort of one of the big concepts or tools available to advertisers today. But you know this eighty twenty sort of breakdown, which you know, I really appreciate you kind of sharing that. I'm curious that twenty percent like. Can you tell me a little bit about the the value add they're like? What are some of the tools, or is is strategy or where? Where is that sort of opportunity with that twenty percent that humans can add to the impact that AI is is it context? I mean I feel like it's always context when it comes to big data, but do you mind just explaining that a little bit? Yeah, I mean, first of all, the AI is not perfect, right. You know, we haven't reached the turing effect where the AI can create creative or ads that are as good as what a human can write. Certain and AI is I often say that generic algorithms performed generically. Yes, so you have something like Google, which is putting out an algorithm that is supposed to work equally well for the plumber in Louis Louisville and IBM. Yes, and you know, I give them a lot of credit. They built some really smart technology, but there's still a great need for a furistics on top of the technology. So totally kind of like maybe the analogy would be like when you fly commercial plane today. You know they've got to trade pilots that each have twentyzero year powers of experience running the plane. The truth is the plane can take off and land by itself pretty much, but you still have that the pilot who's making some decisions along the way, and sometimes those decisions are life and death decisions. Right, absolutely. So, you know, it's a combination of stuff that algorithms can't do yet and also just tweaking the algorithm. I mean sometimes you can literally feed the Algorithm data that changes the way the algorithm thinks. So, yes, using what you want the algorithm the sea, yes, make it can make the outorhthm better. And yes, it's only an expertense that I do that. That's so true, because I think you're making a set of assumptions when you determine what data to feedback into the algorithm, right, and so making sure those assumptions are based in understanding of the platform reality, so on and so forth. Yeah, that we that definitely makes sense. We've had a you know, Google has some programs and again, I give much, much praise to Google. They're very smart team over there, but they have a couple programs where they'll they'll come to someone and say, Hey, listen, we'll run your campaigns for you, will hire we'll have our experts entirely run these campaigns for you. And and I always say like having Google file your run your campaigns like having irs while your taxes for you. I mean, it just doesn't turn out the Wad Mak it would, you know. I mean, so we're not there yet. I mean there's, you know, there is a ton that an expert can do that that the algorithms just don't ye know. But but you know, ten years from now I might have a different opinion of that. Ten years from now, you know, add experts may be spending their time, I don't know, doing something entirely differently, doing some sort of strategic thirtyzero footwork and letting the technology do all the daily activities. So, I mean it's I don't want to say it's innavitable or just think about the sheer mass of data that's being consumed and the processing power that's made...

...available every single year that can better process it. Like it seems like a somewhat of an inevitability that that data will eventually be used to make that better decisions the future. But yeah, I don't I don't want to stress myself up out that much at this point in the week. Sture drove, I mean, yeah, yeah, well, simulation. anyways, exactly, exactly. Well, this is actually a decent segue because I want to talk to you a little bit about your entrepreneurship. You founded three q digital company has or three hundred employees and I want to say about in ten locations or so, if I read read you directly up to about five hundred employees and okay, probably ten location still, because we closed a couple we works got it. So tell me a little bit about sort of like your foray. I mean you went to law school, you came out and you worked in the text base. You found an opportunity and you decided to go for it. What were the early years like? I mean, when did you realize it was going to grow into what it is today? I mean it was was there a moment where you felt that? I'm just wondering, like, what were your intentions going into it and when did you sort of realize it was going to materialize into what it's become today. I didn't have any threat of wild intentions. I really just when I left my last job, I was like, let's see if I can make this consulting work and I just didn't want to work for another boss. Yeah, I seem to always be on the short end of the political stick, even though I was trying to do what was best for you. Every company I was at, I seemed to always lose political battles. I was like I'm just not gonna work someone else again. Yeah, yeah, and you know, I think that I got lucky in a way because when I started the agency in two thousand and eight, it was the start of the great recession, you know, the first time the second bubble bursting, and there were a lot of companies that just couldn't afford full time marketing support and so they had to go the consulting route. The other thing that I was fortunately, I guess, is I had no underlying costs. I mean I was work out of a coffee shop, I didn't have any employees, you know, and I was the chief Crossco orderer and chief, you know, invoicer and chief finds, so I could actually charge a pretty small amount relative the other agencies, and so I just kind of had this I guess you would say, product marker fit. Really Yeah, I was at the right place the right time with the right service. And you know, it took me. It took a couple of years. You know, I think I hired my first full time employee about a year and a half into just doing okay, Yep, but I started to see the momentum and I think one of the things that I guess worked out pretty well for me was I was really very engaged in the silicon valley scene. So I and ended up meeting a lot of venture capitalists and it was, you know, a pretty easy sell of them to say, let me help you scale your marketing. Hey, I met a lot of founders. I got to the point where in a couple years in, you know, I sort of used to joke that like people would come to me and say, well, I looked at the white combinator board and they recommended you, and then I talked to my venture capitalist and they recommended seas. Actually,...

I even had a billboard one to one and I said I drove by your billboard one hundred and one it. So it became sort of an echo chamber where it was we originally called PBC associates, but later three Ky digital was just kind of the default choice for startups in Silgon Valley. And you know, again, there wasn't any sort of grand five year plan. It was just hanging around the hoop and providing good value and you know, and then all sort of came together. Yeah, well, I mean came together in a big way. You scaled to business to, you know, five hundred or some employees. How do you make your company a place that five hundred employees want to be? I mean obviously competitive hiring environment. What's the value proposition that you're providing your employees? Who are they and why do they work at your company? Yeah, I mean, first of all, early on we adopted this methodology called Eos, entrepreneurs operating system, and it's a it's a way of running your business everywhere, everything from how you do your weekly executive meetings to how you promote people, how you fired people. And then one of the things they talked about is establishing corps values, and so, you know, we established early on core values that we thought were important and we've truly tried to live those core values and we also created this concept of course, promises and the team, so things like we don't work with jerks and we would fire clients who are jerks. So I think number one that was that was part of it the success. I think the other thing was just giving people learning opportunities. I mean, I said before, in an agency learn really fast because you're looking at five or ten accounts at once. But I used to tell people all the time, I'd say, listen, if you want to get a thirty percent raise, all you need to do is answer the telephone, because someone's going to call you from Uber or from Stripe or whatever and they're going to offer you more money, more stock options, Cooler Swag and and more frequent free lunches. Absolutely what you want. That I can't compete. But if you want to become the best marketer in the world and whether you stay here for two years or five years, when you leave, you will have opportunities that you could never have dreamed of when you started here, then stick around because you're going to you're going to get that. So you know, and we have. We have, like I think at this point we have probably one hundred people who have worked at three Q and a lot of them have gone on to really significant roles that some big companies, and it's we have a lot of them who have stayed around at three q because they're still learning and they're still moving up the ranks. And but I think that combination of creating a very specific culture that's positive to team members and then creating learning opportunities is help us grow. Yeah, it's interesting because in my head of never really combined. You know, the phrase core values and and value proposition, but frankly they're that's kind of the same. They're almost one in the same in the context of what's exchange of value with your employee? What are you offering them? And Yeah, sure,... whatever, but this is what being spending your time here at this place will mean for you. This is the value. And I don't know that this is a direct time back to poor values, but there's probably some some interplay there. I think it is. I think it is. Yeah, I don't think you can keep great people if you don't have a great culture and I think it has to be more than just free food. You know, totally asked. Someone once said to me Your S, you should learn your s, you should earn and I I generally think, I mean I generally think that's kind of a good approach. I mean I wish when I was in my s that I didn't just know some of the jobs that I took my t S. we're just kind of like Oh, I'm getting an extra fivezero dollars, I'll take that. Yeah, but you know, it's I think you're selling yourself short and again an agency like three Q, where you can will, you can learn really fast, learn different things, move to different apartments. I mean that's invaluable and then when you get to your late s or s you realize that. But something, yeah, just see that hard. Sometimes it gives some out of that when they're in T S, but I no doubt need to be true. Yeah, no doubt. And ask you something here that it's I don't know, maybe my opra question of the day, but I mean you founded this company. It's obviously a successful company. Like what do you want now, like from a professional perspectives, like what's important to you at this point in your career? Yeah, I mean one of my Mantras as an entrepreneur is that entrepreneurs need to fire themselves from jobs and as as I mentioned it. Early days of the company I was doing everything. Yeah, literally everything, and over the last I guess fourteen years I have delegated one thing after another thing and actually about a year ago I delegated the CEO roll to a guy that I brought in who had even more experience than I did in the agency world and has done a fantastic job. So I'm really at this point in sort of an advisory position at threehanding, and so I've kind of done everything I could. Could do it three Q. I mean I'm always happy to sort of share more stories with people and to give advice to the CEO and and be a board member and all that stuff, but I am probably in the next some period of time, anywhere from months to years, going to have to figure something else out. And you know, I wrote a Linkedin post a couple of years ago when Tony Shay from Zappos passed away, yes, talking about purpose and how how hard it is to find purpose after you've sort of sold your business. And I ultimately think that Tony Shay, I don't know him at all, yeah, but I think that's kind of what he suffered from. I mean he had to incredible rise. He built this incredible thing and then suddenly he needed to do something new and so I said, the last couple of years I've sort of trying to be trying to figure that out myself. Yeah, so I think somewhere along the line I have a second act. I it's not going to be an agency space. It's going to be something totally different. But, you know, I do feel like I have to sort of light another fire under me, go to another coffee shop and then start part two and and undoubtedly the blank canvas will eventually be filled with something, something special. I mean I think that's you know too. You know I've...

I was moved when when Tony she passed away as well and I read his I read his book delivering happiness, Living Happiness exactly, and I think what really was clear, because if the personal style which it was written, is that he was just one of those people who just always have to be creating, always had to be doing and there was always an idea. There's never too crazy to execute it, and I think that's something that's probably innate and it's probably doesn't ever go away. You know, finding I'd seeing the problems and not being afraid to kind of come up with radical solutions and and not being afraid to actually execute on those. I think that's kind of the difference in sort of DNA of people in the workforce to some extent. Well, you know, this has been really enlightening for me. I've very much enjoyed this conversation in your perspective. There's a handful of analogies and metaphors that you've shared that that I'm going to be thinking about a bunch, but then also jets. An Opportunity Chat with you, an entrepreneur on the other side of the screen here is is definitely a pleasure for me. So I really appreciate you coming on the show. Yeah, thanks, Bobby. I enjoyed it and I think you've got the the right mindset to the someday have your rocket ship Oh even higher. I apreciate thanks, David. Thank you about it. Thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, would love it if you would give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague. would be to give a little more inspiration for their next campaign. If you want to learn more about the company behind the show, had to open sensecom. That's O P N S E N set com. We'll catch you on the next episode.

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