Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 33 · 11 months ago

The Scientific Genius Behind Vidyard’s Product Led Growth Strategy

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Vidyard is synonymous with asynchronous video communication. They’re considered a top brand and attract thousands of users consistently. This means that sifting through usage data for the right hot leads for sales becomes a challenge only a scientist can tackle. Karishma Rajaratnam uses her masters in behavioral science to identify and engage the right audience at the right time as she heads up the product led growth marketing efforts. Hear her hot takes in this episode that can turn you from list checker into a mad scientist in no time.

About. Welcome to growth marketing camp, where we sit down with our favorite marketers to de mystify growth and give you the insights to help turn your next campaign into a major success. Let's get into it. Welcome to another exciting episode of Growth Marketing Camp. Can't wait to dig in with Kishma Rodretnam, the manager of growth marketing at Videyard, one of my favorite companies ever. Chrisma, welcome to the show. I'm check so happy to be here. Yeah, now for the audience, if you haven't used a synchronous video, which is really what videyard's all about, over the last eighteen, twenty four months, first of all, that's crazy and I'm sorry for you because you really are missing opportunity. But you're going to be really glad you heard the name videyard. It's just one of the best video tools on the market. It has a lot of functionality and they have a really cool fremium model. You can start to use videyard and better understand how to leverage a synchronous video. So, Krishma, what's your favorite use case for a synchronous video as a marketer? Thanks for that awesome introp video and, first of all, but in terms of like my favorite use case, I found that, especially once I joined videat, I started using it a lot in my day to day Colms, and the way I postly really love to use it is to send out a synchronous videos before meetings covering what that meeting is going to be about. So often, like dadding a remote walk, we find that we spend a lot of diamond meetings just going through presentation decks and things that could have been discussed outside of the meeting. So we can use the meeting for more productive conversation. So what I typically try to do is, before a meeting, shoot a quick video, would like a deck and a presentation to just give everyone in the meeting like a context on what that meeting is about, and then I like to attach that video to the calendar link, so the meeting is really use only for productive discussion versus me making a presentation on it. So I find that that's really useful when kicking off new projects or when doing like reviews of old projects that we want to like do a postmotem on. That's probably my favorite use case. Oh my gosh, I did not expect that and I think that is the coolest use case I've heard for videos, like maybe a leader or project manager, somebody who's overseen a meeting. I love it. I think we could in the episode there and everybody would get something out of it, because that's fantastic. Now, since this is a growth marketing show, we got it in the name and you're the first guest to ever appear with that term in your actual title. Can you describe for us what growth marketing means? A videyard saw? I think for video specifically, growth marketing is really a team that tries and test different strategies that are marketing team hasn't already established, and it's really a team that's all about experimentation. So it's about trying and testing new channels, experimenting rigorously with those channels and then taking the experiments that work and feeding it back to the larger marketing team so they could take it and scale it. So it's not necessarily a team that's going to scale each and every one of our experiments, but we want to try way out various things in various areas of marketing and then pick the ones that are successful and then share that with either the product team on the marketing team depending on what's relevant, so they can kind of pick those ideas and then scale them within their teams. That's amazing and totally fitting with the theme in the show, which is we're going to learn something from every guests. We're going to try and take that and apply to what we're doing in everyday lives in our campaign. So that's wonderful. I am curious comparing the two teams, let's say the larger marketing team and the growth marketing team. What's the size ratios there? So I believe our growth marketing we've scaled so fast that I've almost forgotten how many exact people we are, but I believe it just at ten, not just below ten people in total. And then the larger marketing team is about thirty to thirty five people. So we're definitely like Oh, you know potion of the marketing team. But then within the marketing team we have like smaller units of other teams. For example, we have a PR team and a brand team. We've also got like a segment marketing team that focuses on, you know, messaging to different customer segments and converting some of our free users to paid. And then within...

...the growth marketing team. We have individual areas of focus as well. That's awesome. Okay, so it's like one to two, one, twenty three. There and you're taking that and you're applying to the broader mission of the marketing team, which is Great. So I imagine are you experimenting in all those different facets, like are you are you playing with a little bit of brand, a little bit of p are you playing with, you know, paid ads, or is it specifically focus on one type of channel? No, that's that's totally true that we experiment with a bunch of different things. So paid DADS is an area that we've been experimenting with for quite a while now, and while the paidads team was initially very focused on demand jen and down the funnel, they've now started to experiment with brand campaign so kind of being almost an assist or a support to the PR team in digital ads right and scaling, like our paid ads, beyond Demong Jin into brand as well. Within the growth marketing team, my team specifically, which is a team of two, specifically focus on free to paid conversion. So, you know, product led growth strategies that are going to help more of our free user base use and adopt the product and then eventually convert into a paying user, and so we collaborate with other parts of the marketing team as well to make that happen. So we're going to get into that specifically today, the product led growth strategies and what you guys are doing. I want to dig a little bit back into your early career days, though, because I think this informs everything you've done. You actually didn't start in marketing, I look like. You started in the sciences, in particularly behavioral science. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. So I have a master's degree from University College London, where I studied psychology and, to give real science, I've always really been interested in human behavior and you know how that kind of applies to marketing, and so I initially wanted to let pursue a career in academia post like my degree. I actually ended up working with Harvard University for a year on a project that was very specific on academia, right, so my role was really as a research assistant, but then I realized that I really wanted to be in the real world kind of applying what I studied to daily life, and so I ended up teaching myself digital marketing and my husband at the time, who was at Google, sort of really gave me an overview on how add platforms work and how some of the things that I studied could be applied there, and we both ended up setting up a digital consultancy that focused on bringing behavioral science to marketing and we really walk with customers across the world, one of which was charge B and I really enjoyed my time working with jarge be and building out like that early, you know, add words and seem strategy and at the time my husband and I both wanted a kind of pivot into a walking with the product company versus being in services ourselves, and so I you know, charge we just made total sense and I ended up joining them and spending five years their building out several facets of the marketing game, and then that just made a video after yeah, yeah, that's such a good fit for where you're headed with vide ards. So let's let's talk about the campaign that you want to bring up today, because I think this is a good segue into it. You learned the behavioral sciences, which is such a good start for a marketer. I mean amazing, especially growth marketer. That seems like a perfect fit. Then you got to use that in practical application as an agency. Then you win into charge be and for five years, like you really got to stretch your legs with charge me and learn some things and build some things. That's really exciting. And then you took that over the video. And how long have you been a video now? I'm it's all. It's going to be a year in a month now. Okay, cool. So you like you're just starting to get into that really exciting phase where, like, you know everything you need to know to really make huge impact and you're going to have several years ahead you. I'm sure now you've already learned a lot. You've already done a lot of cool things. So let's talk about the product that growth campaign that you are running around, the triggers and messaging that goes out automatically. Can you describe for us the purpose of the campaign come the way you think about it as a campaign? Sure. So, to start off, I think like product at growth is really about making sure that you're communicating with the right customer at the right time, because in product at growth companies they typically tend to have premium plans of free trials, which attract a lot of users at the top of the funnel, right, and sales teams are limited in PLG companies, or in any company really. You can only hire so many sales people and the idea is to as a marketing team, I think it's our job to make sure that we're sending the right leads over to sale so they can do a better...

...job of converting those leads. And in a PLG company things get mixed up because you tend to attract a lot of people top of funnel through these free plans, and so your priority, I think there's a PLG marketing team, is to really pick out the right types of leads and then send those over to sales amongst all the noise, amongst your free user base, right. So what we've really been experimenting with now in terms of like discommunicating with the right user at the right time is sending out triggered emails based on the product data that we collect of our users as usage of VIDEA. So then, you know, that helps us sort of really communicate with the right user the right time and then hit the right KPI. So specifically, one email that we are just recently launched is for a retention perspective. We notice the portion of our users at sign up end up creating a video but they don't really share it right and so, from a VIDEA perspective, for you to see full value in the product, you need to share your video you and receive that first view, because otherwise you just have a video that sitting in your library and you're not seeing the true value that video can bring. So a big part of our team's focus is to get people to not just create videos but also share them and then continually create and share videos and create like a habit loop. So one thing that we set up from a triggered email perspective was to basically tailor our marketing automation system with our data system, which is called heap, to basically create like a connection between the two systems and then send out a triggered email every time we see that a user has created a video within the last seven days but they haven't shared it. So we would then, when we have that data point, we then send them an email that says, hey, we notice you have a video sitting in your library. It's been seven days and you haven't shared it. Why not share the video and then, you know, we can sort of just keep iterating with that email and giving them a few reasons on why sharing a video will help them see the value of the product. So it's really about sending them that message at the right time, just after they've created, soon after they've created the video, to then nudge them to go ahead and share it. And this kind of ties back to my this interest that I have in PLG and these types of campaigns tries back to my interest and behavioral science, because when I was starting behavioral sence we were really learning about like nudging users by sending them messages at the right time. So, you know, this is one campaign that kind of ties to that as well. Yeah, and there's a fine line, I imagine, between nudging in and knowing. How do you watch that line? What are the things that you consider? You know you may not get it right every time. I'm sure that's kind of the point of growth market experiments. You're trying to figure out where that line is. But what have you learned? What if you evaluated in that in that space? Yeah, so I think that's where the whole you know, using your product data really kicks in, because we could technically send that, you know, share a video to pretty much all users, which would be annoying because, assuming that this is not the only campaign where running and they're getting a whole bunch of other campaigns, that would be a lot of communication from video, which is why tailoring it down to a specific user base of people who definitely created a video but haven't shared it within a timeframe of the last seven days helps us get really narrowed and targeted with our messaging. So we're only sending that message to people who, you know, have seen halfway the value of the product but haven't seen the full value. And so, you know, we plan to run many more campaigns like this, just based on specific product triggers. So specifically, for example, with upgrades, it's very easy to kind of just send out like one trigger, one blast email convincing all of your free users to upgrade to paid right for a whole bunch of those three users may not have even tried the product for the first time. They may not have like fully given it a spin. So what we want to be able to do with triggered messaging is to send out emails to users that have specifically seen the value with the product, they've activated, maybe they've retained by coming back and creating multiple videos, and so we as a team know for sure that this user seeing value and now it's probably a good time to speak to them, versus just sending a blast email to everyone asking them to upgrade. So I think that's where you kind of draw the line, is to really get as narrowed and targeted as possible, so you're sending the message only to users who you believe will be likely to receive it in a positive way and who want to actually see that message. Yeah, that that seems to be a lot less annoying and a lot more helpful because you're focusing on...

...something you actually know about their behavior. That's perfect. Yeah, for sure, and I think like that can also be applied to, you know, areas in the product where people might be getting stuck. So, for example, if you know that people have been spending a lot of time in one particular area of the product, more time than they should be, you know, maybe then sending them an email with a bunch of different help articles on how they can get past that stage could also be a way that you're being more helpful. Verse has been annoying and it furthers, you know, your KPI as a product like tree team, of getting users on boarded and making them retailed with a product. Now, since you're experimenting, you probably don't do this to your entire userbase, even if they meet the trigger. Imagine, are you segmenting this down and saying, Hey, we want to try this with a small subset and then maybe deploying to the larger group who are affected by that trigger? Are you saying, Hey, we have a hypothesis, we're going to try it with everybody in the last seven days who is created a video and that center? Are You segmenting that? Yeah, I think for this one we initially started off with pretty much everyone that created a video on the last seven days, but haven't shared it because that audience in itself, because it's so tailored, gives you a small enough audience but still large enough that you're able to get some sort of significant, you know, experiment result. And we actually saw two hundred percent increase in click through, an open rate for this triggered email versus articular non triggered emails, which really tells us that this timely messaging, you know, to user, sending them that message at the right time can be really engaging for them to, you know, want to click through and actually go go to your CTA. Now, how does that inform, because those metrics are amazing, how does that inform what you're doing on the non triggered email side? Imagine that's with the broader marketing team, but like, what are you learning about how often you should be using non triggered email? What are you guys changing maybe about that? Yeah, so I think just given that our team's focus is really around PLG and making for users, you know, on boarded and re engage with the product, what we're planning now is to considering like the amazing results we've seen with like engagement on the triggered email side. From an onboarding perspective, we really want to sort of prioritize triggered emails where we're really sending the right message to the user at the right time. But we still see like our regular marketing emails as playing a really important role in nurturing users longer term because while you know, users want to hear about your product or they want you to sort of or they might want to engage you with your product more, assuming they're enjoying the product experience. I think users also have an appetite to be engaged with your brand overall. So, for instance, video hosts a bunch of amazing like content around like how to use video on your daytoday work flows, and then not just video content but also sales content, right, how to be a better sales person and be more effective with your job, and I think a lot of our sales audience really enjoy that type of content as well. And so we don't want to completely stop sharing that and pivot completely to a product lend messaging. So we're still keeping that communication and consistent, but we're just doing it at a less smaller frequency so we don't bombard users. You know what product emails as well as like those kinds of emails. But P people definitely love hearing about like video in general, because recently my team hosted a workshop and we saw about like a walks up on how to use video in your day to day work flows and we saw almost like a thousand registrants for about one email. And so we definitely want to keep that moving while we also have product emails a layout on top of that. Yeah, imagine there's a big education component to something that is as difficult to understand, although getting easier, especially with the pandemic and remote work, but something that's is difficult to believe in for some people who are maybe camerashy, as a synchronous video. So you want that consistent, like we're beating this drum. We want to help you, got to get better, you get understand that videards here to help you, but then you also want to based on behavior. Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's well. Like product and marketing go hand in hand. Like products, role is to really, you know, make you see the value in the product, create like an amazing user experience you're able to go back and use it. But unless we do brand marke getting to really educate them on where to use video, how to use it, how to get more comfortable, your product prompts are not really going to be as effective. Right. So these two things go hand...

...in hand and we want to make sure that we give them equal weightedge versus placing like one over the other. And I imagine if you keep sending them triggered emails based on behavior, at a certain point a subset of users has no behavior change, right because they didn't open or they didn't engage and they're just not ready for it, where that brand email, than untriggered email, could continue to nurture them along the way until they do have that behavior change and you're able to hit them with that. That more plg than more triggered email. Absolutely I think the role of these marketing emails is to really just keep notchuring until so videa do is always top of mine, and when they feel that they're ready to use a video solution, they think of US instantly and then, you know, go back into the product as a result. I love that balance. I love the way that you are using both the product and just that general brand kind of beat in the drum, helping people see videos as a good potential opportunity for them. Well, that's great. ANYTHING ELSE THAT COMES TO MIND? Maybe things you would do differently about that if you were going to start it over from scratch? It sounds like it was wildly successful. was there anything you would you maybe try differently next time? Yeah, so one thing, and I think we're still working on this, but one thing I would have loved to see is tracking the performance of this email back to actual product behavior. So, for example, you know. So right now we know that we saw to want of to send increase and engagement on the email, but we still don't necessarily know, and the's this is more of a gap in our data currently, how many of those people that engage with the email went in and created then it or shared their video, right, which was a CTA was to share their video. We have ways of doing this with like looking at this data within our systems, but it just requires a lot of like walk on the data team site. So we want like an easy way to actually track that. But we're establishing that full cycle of tracking with heap now and so hopefully in another, you know, couple of weeks time, we should actually be able to see how these people are engaging with the product and that gives is a solid idea of the impact that these emails are having beyond clickthroughs and opens. Our people who are clicking through actually going in and sharing a video? And if so, then that means it's a it's truly a success from a product at growth standpoint, and we shouldn't be doing a lot more. So I think maybe having that up and running before we launched the campaign would have been ideal, but we're also a team that's very biased for action. We want to get things out the door quickly and then fix as we grow. So that was the intent behind just launching it without, you know, the full data. Yeah, that's very tempting, right to say that everything has to be perfect, everything has to be lined up. What I found in my career that I'm sure you've found something similar, is that you think you know exactly what hoses need to be connected and then you run something and you find out, nope, none of that was necessary or half of that was not useful and we still miss something over here. So I think that biased towards actually is probably serving you very well for Shaw, and I think it's definitely true, especially for scale up companies like, you know, videat stage, where not an ely stage start up, we're still scaling into like a larger enterprise where things break very often, like and that's only natural because the rate is which we're growing. You know, they're growing at a very high rate. Our teams are scaling very fast, and so it's very easy to kind of say, okay, this has to be perfect, let's waited out to or three weeks. But that's a more costly to the business than putting things out and just quickly learning from them and improving from there on. And I think that mindset is especially important for growth teams, even more than you know out the teams within marketing, because growth teams are all about experimentation and just being quick and just running quick and ner the experiments that give you quick feedback. So yeah, I think that's really important and I imagine, for for organizations are going to be listening to this and don't have a growth marketing team, maybe kind of putting on that hat and saying, okay, we're going to try something, it's okay that it's not all connected, is going to be quick and dirty, we're going to learn something from maybe that the learning is more valuable than the immediate lift in product adoption or in conversions. Do you think that that might be useful for those of us who can't commit an entire team or even just one person full time to growth marketing? Absolutely, I think the long fast, feel fast mindset can be applied to pretty much every team and definitely like if you can afford to, what if it doesn't make sense at the time to like just hired a full fledged growth marketing team. That can...

...still be some experimentation that's built into your marketing team. So, for example, if you have an existing demandient team but you've never experimented with pay DADS, you know, allocating a portion of your demand Gent Post since time on paid ads and experimenting with that is definitely something that you can do and it's actually a good way to wet out whether a full team focused on experimentation makes sense. But because if you're finding a lot of positive impact from those experiments, then maybe like launching a team that's focused on that actually makes sense longer term as well for you. Hmm, I love that. Now, zooming out from what you're doing in this campaign, because I imagine you're going to have dozens more of these soon as you continue to experiment with the data that you have, especially with that full cycle tracking, when you're looking at how growth marketing is going for vide ARD and what you'd like to be able to crank up right, turn up the dial on. If you had imaginary world here, if you had two times the staff, budget or time specifically in growth marketing, what would you pick them? What would you do with it? This is a tough one. I think specifically, I would love to scale up some of the stuff that we're doing on the product let side by bringing in more data scientists, and this is something we thought about and spoken about a lot as well, and it wouldin videad, but like working more with our data science team to figure out like product qualified leads, to help us figure out product qualified leads and how we should lead score our user base. So currently videad has a you know, we attract users across all walks of life, like specifically working on sales marketing, you know, and different divisions with an organizations. But we want to be able to pick the right leads and prioritize them for our sales team, and that prioritization, I believe, should also happen based on product behavior, because that maybe some users that are heavily more engaged than other users. But today we don't have the best way of surfacing up those, like, you know, hot leads to our sales team, because our sales team works with a very traditional inbound model where somebody requests a demo and then the sales team beaches out, talks to them and converts them. We do have outbound motions in place, but we definitely do think their scope to rate on the Pul product qualified each side of things. So maybe working with the team of data scientists to come up with like a model to show us, like, who are most successful users that are based on those product signals, and what do they do within the product before they convert or before they ask to talk the Seales, and then sort of build a look alike model to identify more of those users and then solfas more of those up the seales. So that's something that we've been thinking about a lot and we have ways with kindly experimenting with it at smaller scale but, as you think, we had more budget and more time, we'd love to involve more take a like a more data driven approach with the data at aim to really come up with what that model should look like and then build it out. I imagine what the success of this campaign you'll be able to continue to earn a little bit of time share there, but it you know, eventually we only have so many hours in the day, so I appreciate a little bit more times. You could double the time and maybe some access to that staff. That makes total sense now and I think just given sorry I was just going to say I think, given the whole bias for action, thing like walking with the data team on this stuff is definitely a longer term sort of big project. So we want to be able to still itterate with smaller things as we go. Yeah, that's a good approach. Yeah, not again, not saying we need have the data team, we need have all their attention. We need to build that this incredible model and this algorithm. We need to know exactly who the hottest leads are all the time, and that's our our only project for the year. It's really that, hey, we're going to we're going to make some attempts here, we're going to learn some things and that will help inform the work, I'm sure, that you do with the data science team. Yeah, absolutely well, Christman, thank you so much for joining us. It has been a real pleasure to hear about how you're taking in a crack at the plg model with vide yard. If there's someone out there who hasn't heard of VIDEYARD, you're not in the text scene. You're going to be grateful you heard about it. Go check it out, get a free trial, play with the tool. You're going to love it. If you're not using a synchronous video. Please do you go play with that thing. You're going to get an email from Christmas team soon, I'm sure, because you'll want you to share that video Christmas. You're looking around at the marketing world and those people who have influenced you most heavily. Are there any brands or individuals that you would recommend that we be aware of that we watch, follow learn from? Yeah, I'm a...

...big fan of the refordge community, so I believe that you know that there's a lot of great content that the rebudgely put sewed on product like growth, on marketing and how product teams and marketing teams can walk together. So I really love their content. I also love the open view venture capitals blogs, so that they talk a lot about Blg as well. And then first round review, I think has some fantastic posts around just management in general and specifically. Like you know, they talk about marketing, sales, a whole bunch of topics, but I love the post on like management and how to manage like a marketing team. I really draw a lot of inspiration from that. I'm so glad you mentioned brands that have content we can dig into because a lot of times, you know, the people that I follow, I only follow them on social media because they're not necessarily producing a lot of content I can go really dig into. I've been looking forward to that, so I'm appreciate you mentioning those. We will definitely throw some links on our socials and will go share it for sure, because that sounds like awesome. Researchers for anybody WHO's been interested in this episode. Now, Christma, where can people find you online if they want to learn more from you? Sure I'm on both twitter and Linkedin, so you can definitely find me there. Okay, we've got like a three thousand and seventy split of actual people who are on twitter still and who are love, and what do you like most about it? I'm curious is I think I just love the content on twitter. Like I think I probably spent a lot more time, like to rating who I follow on twitter for some reason, versus Linkedin, where, you know, I just end up having like a much broader network on Linkedin's so my twitter feet tends to be a lot poculated. So I get a lot of my day to day knowledge on my walk on twitter, because even though it's like short content. I find it very useful. I think when people have to say things in a very concise way, a lot of good stuff comes out, so I think that that format for twitter really works quite well. I love that. Oh great, thank you for joining us. If we want to see video ard, if we want to go check it out, if we want to get a free trial or want to tack to your sales team, where do we go? Just sign up on videacom. It's really easy to download our chrome extension from there. The chrome extension is possibly the easiest and best way to create your videos, so once you sign up, you will get a prompt to download the extension and you can just get started for free from there. Awesome. Well, Christmian, thanks again for joining us. We will be sure to check out more. Thanks so much, x. It was an amazing being on this podcast and thanks for having me absolutely thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you would give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to get a little more inspiration for their next campaign. If you want to learn more about the company behind the show, had to open sensecom, that's open ske and skecom will catch you on the next episode.

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