Growth Marketing Camp
Growth Marketing Camp

Episode 42 · 4 months ago

We Are Talking All Things Tattoos & Marketing with Jaime Romero

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

A company is only as good as its people, and gathering the right people is both an art. Luckily, we have a brilliant artist joining us on Growth Marketing Camp. In this episode, Jaime Romero, the VP of Corporate Marketing at Fortinet and a vivid tattoo lover, gives us a peek behind the curtains of his process in building highly successful teams. You’ll discover how easy it is to get caught in the web of setting grand expectations without actually asking your team the right questions. But don’t worry. Jaime shares the steps needed to overcome those challenges, put together a powerful team, drive satisfaction for each hire, and work with them to develop a vision for their career growth. If you need a roadmap on how to get started, be sure to tune in!

Welcome to growth marketing camp, or we sit down with our favorite marketers to do mystify growth and give you the insights to help turn your next campaign into a major success. Let's get into it. What's up everybody? This is bobby and the rangue host of growth marketing camp. I am incredibly excited today to be joined by Jamie Romero. He is the vice president of corporate marketing at for to Nette. Jamie, welcome to growth marketing camp. Thank you very much, really happy to be here. I'm excited to have you on as well and certainly looking forward to to our conversation today. Before we get started, I thought it might be beneficial if you can just take a second and let our audience know little bit about for Tonette, who customers are, what problems you're solving in the market place today. Yeah, absolutely so. For to net is the world leader in Cyber Security, where the largest suber screaty company of the world, with there were five hundred and fifty thousand customers. Our mission is to protect people, devices and data everywhere we sell into it. Decision makers and executives at smaller companies, larger companies, all the way up through the world's largest fortune one hundred company. Today, I run corporate marketing there, which involves a few different teams. I run global marketing automation team. I've run the creative team, campaigns, demand, some operations. Ultimately, I say, I'm in charge of brand to demand, which is what it basically boils down to. Did I hear you correctly that you said five hundred fiftyzero customers worldwide? Yes, five hundred and fiftyzero customers. If you look at cyber security companies, by the number of customers we have, we're din it is is the largest, you know, by three acts. That's unbelievable. I have to imagine when you have a customer base that large, that obviously there's going to be a company like yours, a field of sales organization that's out in front of large customers. But I have to imagine some, some part of the demand in the businesses maybe more inbound and perhaps more self service. And again I'm just assuming here without sort of being really indepth knowledgeable about your business. Is that correct and if so, sort of I'm just kind of curious, like what sort of the breakdown if we're able to share? Yeah, I mean what I'll say is we're a hundred percent channel based company. So I think we rely deeply on our channel partners who, you are out in the market and talking to customers every single day. They have trusted relationships with their partner, with their customers, I should say, and we are our goal is to support them in any way we can. We build that brand to make it easier for our partners to sell, for tonight, into their customers. We help with the sales functioned, we help the technology. But yeah, I mean to your point, we have field sales, field marketing, sales engineers, I mean, you name it. Anyway, our customers need to consume information. We have a way to help them. That's absolutely fascinating and again, as you know, a startup employee, it's always interesting to have a chance to chat with someone who's involved with the Behem at them and just that that, that number of customers just blows my mind. That's going to do me. Yeah, I will say it's for me personally it's been interesting because, you know, I've I grew up in my career working a lot of different startups and heading marketing at those companies, and you know the scale at a startup and you know, if you start talking about people at career like the influence you have at a company is much different than you have at a company like Paridad, at which is so large. Fortune were a very nimble company and all the teams I work with her are great, but there's so much going on in the company that I don't know about, which is, I'm sure, ID adjustment for me. I'm there. I'm serious. You know, that's actually a pretty decent segue into what I'm really excited to talk with you about today. And you know, for me, you know, as audience probably knows this point, I love getting information out of conversations like this. And so before we got on that route, you know, you mentioned about, you know, influence and teams, and in some conversations with you that I've had, I know that's something that you're going to be passionate about, so much so, in fact, that you're actually authoring a book right now. And and actually,...

...before we get into an indepth conversation about teams and in all of the dynamics their kick, can you maybe just tell our audience a little bit about the book that you're writing, because it sounded super interesting to me when we first chatted about it. Yeah, of course. So what are the things I'm most passionate about throughout my career and how I just find joy every day? Is is mentoring young talent or early career talent and just helping themselve problems, helping to find direction. And another side of my life that I have a passion for and I love our tattoos. So I wanted to write a mashup around marketing tattoos and trying to figure out, you know, how can we bring those two things together. So I am writing a book, or, you know, putting together a book, I should say, with other marketing leaders and executives that have tattoos and are willing to share their stories about, you know, how they got to the place they got and their influences and mentors and some of the challenges they've had along the way, and hopefully that book serves as an inspiration and a road met for other people. And the example I used to give was, you know, I just moved to California, have two, three years ago, from New York and you know, it took me almost ten, twelve, fifteen years to get here. My mindset was I need to have a job. I need to be said, I need to have the house, I need to have every my road needs to be my path needs to be laid for me to move here. And one of the people intriget for the book is like, Oh, I wanted to move to France, so I quit my job, I had a hundred hours of my pocket, I just moved. Prayer that I figured it out right. And Yeah, my hope is that, you know, people can read a book like that. It's a well, I want to do this here. Two ways to very successful. People have done it, you know, so at least it would give me some comfort with whichever way I decide to do it. I know people have been able to achieve these goals before. I think it's so important because, you know, one of the things I'm always observant of at least, is you know just how prescriptive, you know, in this era of social media we live in, influences are about this is the way you must do these things, whether it's executing a specific playbook for a campaign or how to achieve X, Y Z in your career, and I think one of the one of the things that I think is missing from that narrative is that well, if there was one way for things to be done, then everyone would be doing it that way. You know, if there's one way to be successful, then everyone could just follow that and become successful. And I think you know, bringing to market this idea that, hey, you can chart your own path, there's more than one way to achieve whatever it is in mind that you have, I think is so important in it. I think it's just a little bit against the grain and in terms of some of the just the influence that we see in the channels that I'm sure you know, many of our audience are are sort of plugged into. I haven't, at this point in my life, gotten a tattoo, but but I'm just I'm just curious, like, is there some common ground or commonality, aside from the tattoos itself, that you find amongst those you've interviewed? I mean obvious unifying factors that there's a tattoo, but I'm just wondering if it speaks to anything about a personality or some type of trait that perhaps is common in some of the conversations that you have had. None, none at all. I mean introverts, extroverts, men, women. Yeah, you know, like just pretty much. There's so different. You know, I guess the one thing that's common across everybody and everyone faces some form of adversity. You know, throughout the career, everyone has problems they need solving and it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to, you know, talk to somebody and say, you know, I'm having this problem and I'm not sure which way to go, you know. So I think it's really important to, you know, recognize that there are people out there that you want to help. Yeah, and it's obvious you just build your network with those kinds of people that think, you know, life is good and you want always win, you know, you want always make the right decision. Yeah, but at least you'll have support, you know, either way. Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about teams, because from some of the conversations that we've had so far, it's clear to me that that's something that you're incredibly passionate about. What's an overarching philosophy that you hold about teams? Like you know, I'm assuming that you've worked on several director career. What is an ideology or philosophy that sort of forms...

...the way that you think about teams? And how they should be put together or managed or nurtured. You know, it's hard to point to one thing. I find inspiration in a lot of different places. So, firstly, I think about a team, sometimes, oftentimes, in how I would want to be treated if I was a member of that team. What are the tools, what are the resources I need to be successful? However, at the same time you also realize that not everyone is like you. You know, I shared a story earlier in my career when I first started managing people. You know, I had a team about twenty and it was about that time to do, you know, reviews and talk about promotions and raises and super excited and getting everbody in the room and tell me about your future, tell me about your career and how could be helped. And you know, I set this one woman down and she's one of the best marketers we had. She was just a rock star and I was super excited to talk to her and I sat our down and it's like we're going to talk about your feature and then like she just put her finger up that said stopped right there. I don't I don't want any of that. You know, I work nine hundred and twenty five. I commute back to Long Island. I have a good work life balance. I don't need to make more money, I don't want more responsibility. I will work as hard as I can from nine hundred and twenty five like, but I don't want any more. And and at the time I was just like, like, I just didn't understand, could it? I couldn't comprehend that. I did understand that because I was like, more and more and more, I want to grow, I want to promote, I want to yep, you know, just I want to just be the king of the world. Yep. And you know, it was that's the moment for me that I was like, wow, they're like there are people who don't want big, long, fast careers and they start to realize, when you manage a team, that they're different kinds of people on the team and they're motivated in different ways. And Yeah, and your Rock Stars and and your, you know, your foundational team players and your consistent people who just are there and are just, you know, the main knowledge and just want to just be be consistent and not really want to change. So that was like a big lesson that I learned early on. And then, you know, I get inspiration from, you know, a lot of books that I read. You know, one of my favorite was, I think was Kim Scott wrote the about radical candor. Listening to that, Ray Dahlio's book and head leadership lessons on how he manages teams. So, you know, just really thinking through the different philosophies and at the end of the day, to me it's just like blend a lot of of you know, candor and honesty in my team. I am driven and I'm going to push my team and I also believe certain teams, you know, you can be the best in the world and just not be on the right team, and that's okay, too right. So I try to set expectations around what I expect for my teams and if that aligns with your, you know, beliefs and expectations and great, it's going to be awesome. And if it doesn't and you really need something else, I'll help you find something else cool. But yeah, that's kind of where I get my inspiration for him in the example that you shared their you know that the topic of motivations, I think, comes up and it's interesting because in sales, you know, we think a lot about our prospects, motivations and a lot of times, you know, that helps to formulate sort of how you position things or how you engage and so on and so forth. For some of our our listeners who perhaps are upandcoming leaders, upandcoming managers, I mean, is understanding your team's motivation sort of a prerequisite to be able to effectively manage them? Like, how important is it to have those types of conversations and have that type of understanding with the people that you're kind of responsible for nurturing and and sort of managing to achieve your collectible I mean, it's hugely important. Okay, and the first thing I'll say is sometimes those are conversations you have and say what is important to you and you have a conversation and it's like you just get that information right there. Sometimes you'll ask thend'll say one thing, but then you'll observe another. Guys, it is probably pretty common in sales, I'd imagine there. Yeah, you know, and so you just really have to listen right and sometimes you get to know your your team members over the course...

...of an entire year and just by engaging ask him things about their life and what's going on in their world. You kind of start painting a picture on like what's important to them, and a lot of times this money. And I'm a believer money's important to everybody, right, and I just hear, I just saw some money post on liking, I forget their name, and they started talking about these these recruiting and how you could at this is not about the money and the other then I'm like, yeah, well, my mortgage doesn't acceptation paying it's right. So it's like that money is hugely important factor in anybody's career unless you're, you know, one percent, you know, rich, and you don't even have to worry about it anymore than that's yeah, but yeah, you know, I think money is a foundational thing. That just is important. But then there is the you know, what drives satisfaction? Yeah, and it's sometimes it's, you know, I'm looking for a culture that I can thrive in, that I feel supported in. Yep, sometimes it's it is that career growth and and giving people of vision of where their career would be in the next year, two or three years. You know. So this just you just got to get to know the person and, like I said, sometimes it's easy and you'll get lucky if they know and they'll tell you. Yeah, sometimes they don't know and you got to just work with them on uncovering it. I'm curious about that because you mentioned culture, and you know I'm a huge believer in that as well, that that money obviously is going to be important, but people generally they want to feel some level of comfort in the way that they fit into like a team or companies culture. Now, in the context of company like Ford Net that's as large as it is. What role does the company's culture play in sort of creating that type of environment where people can feel that comfort level, versus the role that you play as a leader in sort of setting a team culture? I guess how do you balance? Is there a balance between corporate or company culture and individual team culture, or those sort of one in the same? I'm just kind of curious how you navigate that and kind of a firm one way or another. That is a fantastic question. You know, we talked about earlier startups and you know, being, you know, at a sixty, seventy, hundred, two hundred percent company and as an executive and and your executive team have very can be very prescriptive around the culture and maneuvering it. When you're at a company with tenzero employees, you know, the ability for one VP to have a meaningful impact that the global culture the company, is impossible. And so, as an executive at Floridat, you know you have to play within the bounds of the corporate culture. Yeah, you know, which important in my opinion, is great. You know, we're very fast, where we've got to start up mindset, we make decisions quickly. It's very fast paced, where hypergrowth mode. You know, we're growing thirty percent a year, every year it you know, that's not an official number, sure, but publicly created, you know, commoned out. That's a Hashtag, asterisk. Yeah, you know. So that is the culture of the company and I'm not going to go in there and change that. I'm not going to go in and say, you know what, let's slow it down. Right. So you got to get within those boundaries and then create an environment around that as a backdrop where you're still aligned to the corporate cultures. But there's some, you know, elements of as a team that you can build. You know, is that radical candor, for example? Absolutely, something that I have with my team that everyone knows where I stand. And you know, in terms of, you know, having flexibility around working from home, which you know at this point is everybody, but before covid you know, you can stick kind of build some of those things in. So I think you definitely have to operate within the bounds of the broader pumpany culture, because if you try to swim up stream against that, you're going to fail. Yeah, you're not going to get the support you need. You know, if health is really important to you and you're trying to establish these health programs and, you know, these wellness classes,...

...and if the company just doesn't believe in that, you're just not going to go anywhere and it'll fizzle out pretty quickly. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about radical candor as a management means, communication means. Is you think about rat radical candor in the context of, let's say, like even a one on one with a team member? How are you informing your candor there, I guess is it? Is it a mix of qualitative observation and metrics and KPIS? I am I'm sort of angling here now more towards like how you're actually managing the team. What do you bring into the conversation to inform your radically candid conversation. Yeah, yeah, so it's been a while since I read that book, so I will refrain from using and trying to quote any of the philosophyoughs out of that behind directly. But in terms of how I operate, you know, I try to establish a data driven culture and I don't just say it like we do it. And you can ask any one of my team, you know, and I think there's two kinds of teams that I have are very easily data driven. Right, it's like the Website Traffick and conversion in the demand team, it's CPLS and bunnels and pipeline and all that stuff. And then you got other teams like the creative team, which is about brand and it's less about like the metrics for them and and there's a certain subjective nature to to the relationship there. So for me, when we talk about radical candor, a lot of it is, yes, it's on the data. It's like here's where we're at, here's how we're pacing. You know what, what are some of the challenges you're having? You know, and and for me in that example, it's it's about asking questions. You know, I've rarely come into a meeting and just, you know, start talking and giving my opinion. It's really about where are we, what are you doing, what's going on? How does this person feel? What's their point of view? You know it just really start gathering that information and you start formulating opinions at the time and if you pretty quickly, and then you can start. You know, for me, I look at my job as as someone who removes roadblocks for the team. So really what I'm digging into understanding is what are the problems and then how can I help with those problems? So that's generally how I approach almost most of the meetings eminded with my team directly. That's fascinating. So you're not bringing any preconceptions into that meeting, or I imagine you must. There must be some, but you're informing whatever sort of feedback comes from that meeting or next steps come from that meeting, with data that you're actually gathering in the moment. And so I guess there's probably a level of expectation from your team to be transparent with you and to be upfront with you and to be sort of knowledgeable about their work. In order for you to most effectively do your job as a leader, which I think is a really interesting you know, as I think about my own sort of management style, I feel like a lot of times I'm bringing a what I perceived to be a data driven perspective into a meeting, but I'm kind of in that scenario not necessarily making an assessment based on the three or sixty degrees is because there's a part of the conversation that's missing, which is what's actually happening with the individual themselves. And so I feel like that's a really incredible takeaways and it goes back to that sort of listening first mentality, which is, you know, ask the questions, inform your perspective in order to again assess and make the decision in terms of like what the next best steps are. You have to write like so, I mean the domains that I manage, I'm not an expert in all of them, you know, like I'm not an SEO expert. I know enough to be dangerous. Hey, like if I had my own website and I had my own small business, I can put a website together. I'm like, Oh, I need to metadata. You know what it is. So I'm not going to sit there and tell my seo team like what to do. I'm what are the problems you're having and and what I'm trying to is inspire them on how to think about their problems, you know. So if they're they're running into a roadblock. I'm not. I can't. I there's no way I could sit there and say, Oh, did you try this? You know, no follow tag under Earth, no index page. I'm like, I just made all that up. I'm yeah, I'm sure it's somebody's...

...laughing right now, but you know, it's to me it's like you know where you looking for your information, what are the road blocks? And then the little satisfying prussure like Oh, I didn't think about the problem that way right. It's like, okay, great now, let's talk about that problem and how you're going to solve that first. So that that's kind of my philosophy of how I'm trying to uncover and how my role supports those functions. Incredibly valuable takeaway, and I'm just going to restate it mostly swords ingrained in my own brain, is that when we have these types of conversations, we want to have positive outcomes. And the best way to do that is to have a conversation like again, ask the questions inform a perspective that can help to sort of eliminate the road blocks and achieve the best outcome. That's actually incredibly useful. So I appreciate you sharing that perspective. Can we talk a little bit about team structure, and I'm not sure how important that is. I guess maybe we can start there. How mortant is it and, if it is important, like, what are the ways that you're structuring your teams in order to achieve off to while put yeah, I mean team structure is hugely important and my team structure is hugely important to the way my organization is organized. I would never be like, oh, this is how everybody should structure their team right. I actually hate it when like you, read all those linked the posts like you should be doing this one month and three, four, far higher. This person first hire that, like you know, every Gathty, I want to say every company's different, but you know, you got categories of company and different stages of development and different stages of marketing that should have different needs. And you know, actually had this conversation as there was somebody there there are ten million dollar company and they're like we're real architect of the marketing team. I was like, Oh, should I? Should I hire a CMO? And I'm like, you know, a ten million dollars, it really need to seem like high director marketing, who's going to work so hard for you? Yeah, actually do the work. You hire a CFO. Now you're actually really hiring maybe like a VP of marketing, because you need somebody to do the work. You don't absolved an idea person in that role at that point. So in terms this team structure, you know, I look at it in terms of, you know, for a couple like foard and it's relatively easy, and for me especially, because I have specific functions. You know, is like the web team and the digital operations team and, you know, the campaign's team and and the creative team and there's older those are all my designers, right right. I think where you where the nuance in team organization starts happening is, and I think a more interesting conversation for a lot of people, is the hierarchies within the team. Okay, yeah, and the career progressions and how you manage that. I think that gets much harder because now you have a team of let's say, five professionals. One's been there for for three years, four years, while I've been there for three or four months. You know, the three or four months person might be, you know, ten xmore talented, and you know now you're having to deal with personalities and you know who gets the better work, and you know it's so that I think that part gets a lot more challenging versus a team structure and just talking about like, you know, this is how I'm going to organize by team. What I've tried to do in the past was developed merit based hierarchies for the team. You know, it's like it's not and it's not necessarily about time served. It's more about, you know, meeting very specific development goals and creating a structure within the team. For example, our global marketing automation team was a super flat organization. Very much everyone had the same job. And you know, when you think about email, there's a lot of core competencies with the email. So it's like you can start as a as a you know, level one, which is like your job is to just take emails and put them together. Okay, level to. You're now advising the business right, you're an email expert. Level Three. You want to hit level three. Well, level three we've defined as someone who can build templates and nose poting. Will call it an expert code, or it could build uplits. Can you know on the flight, dude, like really custom project. Yeah, you know. Level four you might be, you know, you might have to...

...go to school or do something and become a deliverability expert and like the value of having somebody like imagine owning an email organization and having someone who's striving to be the best email person in the world and all of a sudden now they're like striving to be world renowned deliverability expert. Yep, you know. And then level five might be a spam, you know, expert and understanding how all those work, building relationships with the spam providers. So you start thinking about the role in those levels and when you get to that stage. The inspiration for this, by the way, is not me. I got I you know, learned about this it. I read a Ky study about the the IDM fellowship program okay, okay, and and that's where I got all this from. Well up, but the IBF fellowship program was that they have the exact same problem, right, know, all of these scientists, yeah, and you know, only a few got promoted to directors and managers mvps, and you know, all these sience of just lead because they would hit a ceiling. So ended up doing is creating this hierarchy of expertise for scientists where, you know, it culminates to becoming a fellow and that actually had more prestige at the company than any other. Wow, sin if I'm if I'm a remembering the whole tw erectly. Yeah, so what I like? So I'm modeling it after that to say, you know what, we need the email people. We don't want you to cycle out, but we also need the expertise. So why don't you become the best email person you can be, will hey? You accordingly, right, like it's you, won't you? As you continue to grow. And you know, if I can hire an incrementally pay somebody meaningful about a money to become the world best spam avoid right like that. Yeah, that's worth its weight in email. Right. So, so you think about it that way and you start putting into place training and programs and expectations, and then your development conversations get a little bit easier. Right now it's like all right, level to your yeah, three, you want to be a level three, these are the courses you need to take, these are the skills take. You hit that you get your next title level, yes, financial level, and so on. So this is this is really, really like powerful, because you're building levels into a specific roles now, and now are you doing this for every one of your practice areas? I mean, like, is that functionally how this works or not yet? You know, that's a lot of work. Yeah, yeah, the whole email thing, we're still in the process, sure, holding out here and really like we have a vision for it. Now. Finding the training for that stuff is actually actually card. I was going to say, like the trait, like you have to have partners because because, I mean like if you're ultimate owning this, you know, who are you collaborating with to, you know, an ideal world to bring this into fruition, right, I mean it seems like you have to have partners and in potentially training to help to develop the materials. I mean absolutely, yeah, but but it just makes a ton of sense, because what's the alternative? The alternative is they quipped, they quit attrition, you know, and then you're basic higher rate like junior level people to be level work. Yeah, yeah, you never build that expertise, right. So, yeah, that's why I do it and you can't do it in a lot of different places. Like I'm just you know, I haven't talked to anybody in my teacher motes be. You thinking about like their creative team, right, yeah, stick graphic designer level one, graft center level to you know, art director, creative director, and I think that got to sign piece is a little bit more establish in terms of path at the yes, they're. Yeah, you know. So you can think about it in a lot of different even the same thing with website and but again, it's really understanding at the end of day. What are the motivations for the absolutely, like, you know, if I think about somebody who's starting out on the web team, you know there is a path for them to go up. They want to be a developer and they want to, you know, Code Front ends on the websites or even called back ends, or they want to be a project manager. Right. So you've got to be careful because you also need to have people in the role that you need. The been no doubt that always looking for I mean, I'm just like all of this is reminding me in a very strange way, when I graduated from school in two thousand and eight, I took a job with states through. It was literally like I didn't know what the Heck I was doing and they would hire if you, if you had a pulse, and so remember taking this job and it was a mutual fun to count and although it sounds somewhat complicated, really what it was was just a series of macros that you're executing within with an excel at specific periods of time to report to the markets on a daytoday basis, and I just...

...remember getting as good at that job as I possibly could have within the first, call it sixty days of working there, and then realizing that this wasn't a place that was going to identify talent and do something about it. Like I could work as hard as I possibly could, but the person who had been there and had the greatest tenure was going to get the promotion. It would have no impact on my standing within the company. These are real problems, though I think with teams that you do nurture and grow, so let's let's talk about that. Example, where you got the person who's been there for three or four years and the person who's there for three or four months. That's that's a pretty and who has maybe like ten xt town or whatever. Like, practically speaking, how are you managing that situation? It's putting on the spot here a little bit. Yeah, so it's not easy. More importantly, I think one of the challenges you have managing today is setting a time frame of expectations. Right, like will hire people, I've hired you in the past who six months in, or like I want to promotion that I want to raise and I'm like, it's been six months, you literally just learned. Yeah, and then this job market they're like, all right, well then I just got a job off for making forty percent more. Yeah, and it's tough. It's a tough decision to make because it's it's you know, they haven't proved out to make that thirty percent more. Yet, at least to you, they might be where they might do great job. So I think the number one thing for me is really managing expectations and having those conversations with people and understanding, you know, and giving them timeline. So I'll give you a good example. Okay, a guy used to work for me. It was a graphic designer and he came from when they said, you know, I quit. I've been here for two years and I really wanted, you know, I want to move my career to the next step and I really want to be a creative director. And and I fought out. told him, I said, you are not ready to be a creative director. There's a lot you need to learn about being a cretic director, especially within a company. I mean your talented designer, but you're not a creative director. And you might get to job as a creative director today because you've convinced the me your creative director. When you actually start doing the job, you're either gonna succeed immensely because you're just that inherently talented, or you're not going to do well and you're going to just chug along and then you're going to find another job within the next year. And I said give me two years, I will personally work with you on how to be a creative director. So he ended up deciding to stay. And you know, for me, having those expectations and that guidance for people gives me the ability to craft the path for them. If I don't know where you want to be, I'm just going to give you work. Yeah, and I'm just going to ask you to do things at random. Yeah, but if I know you want to go in a particular direction, you know, I had one person who's in marketing this said I want to be in product management. So I started, little by little, putting them in into like product manager task that I also owned. And you know, actually I just she just put her job and got a fulltime job as a product man. Dret Houp spot actually saw super proud of her. But so for two years, like every time there was a certain meeting, you know, I give this personal the opportunity to speak up and to give his opinion. I'd give him you know, during project I have them do extra things, and then two years later I promoted him to creative director. It's and it was such a rewarding time because I wasn't friends with him up facebook, but somebody told me he posted up facebook that he was, you know, best day of his life, he just got his dream job and all that, and I was just like, you know that, that's why you do it right, that's why you put in the time and and and and you hope you can, you know, change Cho those lives in that way. Well, you know, it sounds like prerequisite is that you've really got a care about the people that you're managing. I don't know, is that true? I mean, this is what sounds like to me based on what you're saying, but it's that true? I mean, I think for me it has to be true. Yeah, I can imagine a scenario where somebody doesn't care and they're just really care about their own success. Sure means and they just see people management and careers as a means to an end for their own personal goal. But you know, I think when you do care, when you do really listen, there's a is an authenticity there. Yeah, and I think a connection you build with your team's where they feel you really care. I think, you know if there might be, you know, the ends justifies the meets, right, like if I didn't care and I said, you know...

...what, I don't care about your career, I want you to be successful because you being successful make me successful, that might be okay for some people, like cool, yeah, I don't care if you don't care about me. Like, you know, if I'm in sales I like. Yeah, I don't care. I'm going to make my numbers this number and you're going to promote me. That's all I care about. Sure that you like me or not. Sure, doesn't matter. Yep, right for me, Percy. That's not the environment I would drive it I need. I need an environment where, you know, I do feel there is a genuine, genuine level of concern and and engagement in terms of personal growth for people. Yeah, and that looks different for a lot of people, like a lot of the leaders that I've worked under. We're not like me. Yeah, not very engaged and not have monthly or annual meetings about my career. Almost none of them ever asked me about where I want to be in my career. But I do know they thought about it, I do know they cared about it and I do know they've give me opportunities to get right where I am. So, you know, it's important to create that this. You don't always need to have those deep conversations with people. You know, it just it just can happen based on your own personality type. And Yeah, as long as you're listening, I think that's the most important thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's a really good point. This gets me, and I know we're kind of coming up on time. You're again one to be very respectful of yours. But let's talk about leadership, because I think we've talked about teams and in some of the ways that we can, you know, set a team of culture and build career paths and listen, and I guess that already kind of speaks to like what qualities a leader should have. But based on, I guess, how you think about leading and perhaps leaders that you've, like you were just mentioning, encountered along your career. You know, maybe there's a Redune at question, but what are some of the things that you need to see? Are you need to sort of convey or project or be as a leader to be effective at nurturing and leading great teams? Yeah, I think there's a few things I would look at. You know, if you think about the role of the leader, number one is happening vision, right, setting of vision for the entire team organization, and that comes a different way. It could be a product vision, it could be company strategy, it could be just, you know, helping set those challenging goals for your teams. For sure owth right. So just being able to look at the organization, the market, the product, everything holistically and saying we are here today, this is where we need to be. So your teams are coming to you for guidance and I think it's the responsibility of a strong leader to set that guidance. I think there's a lot of leaders that might look at incremental growth or they're just getting direction from somebody else is saying this is where we need to be and just kind of following the leader in that in that way. But if you come in and you set that vision for the team, I think you'll look to you to fulfill that vision. So that's somewhere one. Number two, you know, as I said earlier, I think the job of a leaders also to remove those road blocks. So, like I said, I see myself when I especially when I'm meeting with a lot of the teams. You know what are the problems they're having, what are the obstacles in their way in terms of trying to achieve their goal? So just an example for today, Ay Jamie, I have a contract I've been waiting on for a week, or two weeks, whatever it is, with this team. Do you think you can send them anute out and see if you can get that cleared, because we're on hold until I get this back and it's been, you know, tier three weeks and I said the email today and talk to them and found I was going on and, you know, an hour later we got it resolved and then they're often running and they're engage. So, you know, I think if you look at your job as a leader, part of your job as leader to remove those roadblocks from your team, as technical as they can be or strategic as they can be. I think that's another function that you should look for in a either, you know. So it's having that vision, you know, removing roadblocks and being supportive and then just just, I look for just good people right like, I like I'm at work, you know, ten hours a day. Yeah, you know, you work with people, you want to work with people you like. You want to work with people...

...that you're going to learn from and I think if I had to pick up third thing, working for somebody that you're going to learn something from, I think it's probably the next most important thing. I found myself when I work for people and I found that I've reached the capacity of learning with that person or that company, my level of engagement has gone down. My level of motivation to work for that person has gone down pretty significantly. So I think it's really important for me to work with people that I'm going to learn from and I'm excited. I'm learning so much right now from my bosses, so I'm in a little portionate place. Really really valuable feedback there. Before we wrap up, Jamie, I'm going to rapid fire a couple of questions to you. These kind of our questions that we try to ask our guests in general, and so they may seem a little bit more more structured, but let's go ahead and quickly look at it. If you had two times to staff budget or time, which would you choose and what would you do with it? Few Times to staff budget or time? O, man, I mean I guess time. You know, I could do with all of them, by the way. You know you're always coming up against the clock with everything and there's so much to do. I would definitely thick time. I've got cool next one. What's one thing marketer should stop doing that they're doing now or start doing that they're not yet? Man, I should have gave you these an advance been ready to go. Well, what do they should start doing? Is, I'm a big deliver in data. Use Data to make decisions. You know, there's so many instances where we're you know, we're making an investment in evendor. It's like, why are you making investment in this? Gender like, why are you tripling your spend and and my hope is that they say, Oh, well, last year's performance was better than the year before, better than the other ten vendors, and not that the sales person give me a great deal. Yeah, one thing we should stop doing, you know, what we should stop doing is listening to everybody on Linkedin. You know, it's like the amount of advice that comes through on Linkedin as authoritative is mind blowing to me. I think that advice is great for that particular company in that particular situation. But I've been you know, I've talked to a few people recently about this. It's like, yeah, ABM is great and I'm glad you went all in on ABM. I can't go all in on ABM. I have I have to do fifteen different types of things. ABM's one of them, but I'm not going all in on ear. I am not putting all of my content free on the Internet. I still generate tens and millions of dollars on dated, dated White Paper. Absolutely if I stop doing that, like I lose a lot. Right. So, you know, everybody in linked that has an opinion and I listen and I learned, I get ideas and I evolved. But for me to like, I see those comments of times like yeah, that's great, we just released all of our content for free online and I'm like Whoa, you did, like good luck with that one. But I do want to on Linkedin. I do want to say I do appreciate a lot of the contributors to like the the dog. I don't want to certainly say that you know anything negative about them, because they it does take a lot of time to post stuff. I just think people who consume that content, you know, they should just be a little bit more cautious about listening to everybody, because I actually know a lot of people like did who do post a lot of his great advice who have not been successful implementing that advice. Well, hopefully this can be some some good stuff on Linkedin at some point. I really enjoyed this conversation. You know, I probably have fifty more questions that I can answer. Ask You and and maybe those are conversations so that we can have in the future. But I really do appreciate you taking some time out of your day to come on the show and share some of the insight. I know I learned something valuable today and I'm sure that our audience will as well. Right. I appreciate it and if anybody wants to talk at choose in marketing, definitely hit me up. Awesome. All right, Jamie, thanks so much for coming on. Thanks, Mommy. Thanks for listening to growth marketing camp. If you enjoyed this episode, would love it if...

...you would give it a quick five star rating or share it with a friend or colleague looking to give a little more inspiration for their next campaign. You want to learn more about the company behind the show, had to open sensecom. That's open se n Secom. Will catch you on the next episode.

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